never seen one of these!

Johnny Canuck · Post by **Johnny Canuck** » November 3, 2011, 8:11 am

I met a guy once who was a traveling salesman who'd had one of those diesel Rangers. He thought it was the greatest vehicle he'd ever owned. I have also seen one in a Topaz or Tempo... they were a Mazda engine I believe. Strange choice to put them in a Tempo... those and Escorts were the closest thing to a throw-away car Ford North America ever made.. and then put an engine it it good for half a mil..

Probably if Ford or Mazda had turbo'd them from the factory they would have caught on a lot better.

and Cooter... they make Kubota Quads that are diesels.

Toyz · Post by **Toyz** » November 3, 2011, 9:11 am

Maybe Ford could see the light and bring the new Ranger, which is scheduled to be available in Alan's neighborhood, to the states with it's diesel options, a 2.2 TD 4 cylinder, and a 3.2 TD 5 cylinder.
Being new designs, I would think they would be adaptable to meet U.S. standards, and would appear to be helpful in meeting the new CAFE standards.
Paul

fire truck · Post by **fire truck** » November 3, 2011, 10:49 am

The problem is milage... With all the emissions bs they have now the new diesels get terrible milage. I doubt a diesel ranger can meet emissions and MPG requirements and have power that Americans desire......

I would bet the next small truck will has a 4 cylinder EB.....

Toyz · Post by **Toyz** » November 3, 2011, 12:42 pm

Good point. I suspect it also has plenty to do with the possibility of a larger Ranger cutting into the F150 sales, potentially to the point of affecting the "Top selling Truck" ratings.
Certainly the EB, especially the 2.0, will see extended usage in the future for mileage and development cost recovery reasons.
Paul

charliemccraney · Post by **charliemccraney** » November 3, 2011, 1:25 pm

If VW can do it, there's no reason Ford can't. The father of a friend has one of the new VW diesels. On a trip from Miami to Atlanta he got 55mpg, and it has reasonable performance, too.
I think it has to do more with a stigma than anything else. In the US, diesels are most commonly seen as big smoke billowing work trucks that only get single digit economy rather than clean burning, fuel efficient everyday cars. If we don't believe in it as a whole, then they aren't going to produce it, or at least they will not just suddenly jump right in.

65TremecGT · Post by **65TremecGT** » November 3, 2011, 4:23 pm

I would love a TD ranger, would be a cool little truck! I also have a friend who just bought the new TDI Jetta. Its very similar to my fusion, but gets 55 on the highway! I wish there was a TD Fusion also, would be a good seller, the Jetta is really quiet.

fire truck · Post by **fire truck** » November 4, 2011, 9:26 am

I was just telling the guys I work with about these 55 mpg jettas.... They couldn't stop laughing ... There's four of them that have them here and compete for milage....the best yet out of an 07 up is 48

With the stupid emissions regs, the milage is dropping off. Combine that with the price premium of a diesel engine, the cost of diesel fuel, the $40 fuel filters that need changed every 10k, more expensive oil....it all adds up to more expense. I love diesels, but they've gotten to be more money than the advantage...

charliemccraney · Post by **charliemccraney** » November 4, 2011, 9:40 am

Well, I can't prove it since I was not with him during the trip from Miami to Atlanta, but he has no reason to lie. And with a second independent account here, I'm more inclined to believe it. The way a person drives goes a long way, too.
Even so, 48 mpg out of an engine that produces 140hp and 236ftlbs is phenomenal. Are there any gasoline engines that are comparable?
I agree that if you look at the actual cost of a diesel vs gasoline it may not be as economical, but again, it's not yet mainstream so to expect it to be priced competitively to a gasoline counterpart is unrealistic. The volume is not yet there. That seems to be the case with most of these new "green" cars.

Johnny Canuck · Post by **Johnny Canuck** » November 4, 2011, 11:47 am

VW redesigned thier diesels for cars in 2009 I believe it was. On my way to work I pass by a new Jetta sitting on the dealers lot with a 61 MPG sign on it. I assume they get that from the window sticker. That would be Imperial gallons. If it's true it's pretty good, my smart car has averaged 54 MPG over 3 years

I am not sure why you'd have to change out a fuel filter for diesel every 10000 mi, is US diesel that much dirtier than gas? The Smart with a Mercedes 3 cyl diesel is at 50,000 kliks without changing out the fuel filter.. no problems so far.

johnzmu · Post by **johnzmu** » November 4, 2011, 12:38 pm

You guys might think I'm nuts, but the new "ultra low sulpher diesel" is harder on mileage numbers vs. the low sulpher diesel. The first jetta diesels that were getting 55mpg plus, dont seem to do it anymore. Anyone else heard of this?

Johnny Canuck · Post by **Johnny Canuck** » November 4, 2011, 2:39 pm

One thing I really noticed was that US premium diesel really makes a power difference for me. Shell is the only Canadian one, doesn't seem to make quite as much difference.

I think this ultra low suplhur diesel is just a load of bull, especially out west here. Just another reason to charge more for nuthin, like when they charged more NOT to put lead in your gas.

fire truck · Post by **fire truck** » November 4, 2011, 4:56 pm

charliemccraney wrote:Well, I can't prove it since I was not with him during the trip from Miami to Atlanta, but he has no reason to lie. And with a second independent account here, I'm more inclined to believe it. The way a person drives goes a long way, too.
Even so, 48 mpg out of an engine that produces 140hp and 236ftlbs is phenomenal. Are there any gasoline engines that are comparable?
I agree that if you look at the actual cost of a diesel vs gasoline it may not be as economical, but again, it's not yet mainstream so to expect it to be priced competitively to a gasoline counterpart is unrealistic. The volume is not yet there. That seems to be the case with most of these new "green" cars.

These guys drive to compete for the best milage, not hot rod it.... If I had a dollar for every diesel pickup owner claiming higher than actual milage I could retire....
How is diesel fuel not mainstream? It costs less to make it than gasoline, well before the ULS requirements it was, regardless diesel used to be a lot cheaper than gasoline. Diesel is far from new....
Yes I believe a 4 cylinder DI turbo gas engine could achieve similar power and MPG in a similar sized car. Think about it, the EB gets 22 in a cc f150 when the best milage diesels get 16.....

fire truck · Post by **fire truck** » November 4, 2011, 6:02 pm

Johnny Canuck wrote:VW redesigned thier diesels for cars in 2009 I believe it was. On my way to work I pass by a new Jetta sitting on the dealers lot with a 61 MPG sign on it. I assume they get that from the window sticker. That would be Imperial gallons. If it's true it's pretty good, my smart car has averaged 54 MPG over 3 years

I am not sure why you'd have to change out a fuel filter for diesel every 10000 mi, is US diesel that much dirtier than gas? The Smart with a Mercedes 3 cyl diesel is at 50,000 kliks without changing out the fuel filter.. no problems so far.

It's not just dirtier, the filters have to make it a lot cleaner for the HPCFR system, some of them run up to 30,000 PSI. IIRC VW pulled their tdi tourag off the us market because our fuel was too dirty and caused a lot of injector issues.

fire truck · Post by **fire truck** » November 4, 2011, 6:08 pm

Johnny Canuck wrote:One thing I really noticed was that US premium diesel really makes a power difference for me. Shell is the only Canadian one, doesn't seem to make quite as much difference.

I think this ultra low suplhur diesel is just a load of bull, especially out west here. Just another reason to charge more for nuthin, like when they charged more NOT to put lead in your gas.

Ask anyone that has run diesels for a few years ULSD is different, not only does it get less MPG, injectors and pumps wear out quicker due to less lubicity. Even the change to winter blend fuel drops milage....

charliemccraney · Post by **charliemccraney** » November 4, 2011, 9:44 pm

fire truck wrote:How is diesel fuel not mainstream? It costs less to make it than gasoline, well before the ULS requirements it was, regardless diesel used to be a lot cheaper than gasoline. Diesel is far from new....
Yes I believe a 4 cylinder DI turbo gas engine could achieve similar power and MPG in a similar sized car. Think about it, the EB gets 22 in a cc f150 when the best milage diesels get 16.....

Diesel grocery getters, family sedans are not mainstream. That is what I mean. Since average Joes believe that diesels are generally dirty, the auto manufacturers will not just jump right in and develop them for people who don't want them.

I don't see the Ecoboost F150 as compared to the diesel to be a good example. They are built for different purposes. Ecoboost is 3.5L, 365hp, 420ftlbs V6. The diesel is 6.7L, 400hp, 800ftlbs V8 and appears only to be available in Superduties which have more mass, are generally bigger and probably have worse aerodynamics as a result and are more work oriented. That all adds up to worse mileage for the diesel but it can do more than 62% more work than the EcoBoost, looking at the GVW and payload specs. That's hardly apples to apples.

Though still not a fair example, it is a closer, the VW Touareg is the most comparable in the VW lineup to an F150. The TDI has a 3.0L, 225hp, 406ftlbs motor and is advertised at 28mpg. I'm no expert on diesels but I don't believe they ever produce as much horsepower as an equally sized gasoline engine. In this case, the specific torque output is 135.33ftlbs (ftlbs/L). The ecoboost is 120. The 6.7L diesel is 119.4. Put another way, were the VW diesel 3.5L, it would produce 473.7ftlbs. That's significant.

A very fair comparison can be had simply by looking at the VW lineup. Every TDI gets better mileage, and has more torque with a smaller engine than the same model with a gasoline engine. And, after looking at the base prices, I think a diesel absolutely is worth it, particularly for someone like me who would drive it until I can see daylight through the floor.

Edit: I just noticed that the VW gas engines are 5 cyl, no turbo so even using the VW lineup isn't quite apples to apples.

Perhaps this is the "smog era" for the diesel only it's already performing at least comparatively to the developed gasoline engine. When they overcome whatever problems exist, they will easily surpass a gasoline engine.

To me it's clear that gasoline engines cannot compare to a diesel.

By the way, I'm not necessarily a VW nut. It's just very convenient.

Johnny Canuck · Post by **Johnny Canuck** » November 5, 2011, 9:45 am

I agree with you Charlie. My initial reason for wanting a diesel car though, was to "Get off the grid" with the oil company thieves who along with our politicians are always holding North American's feet to the fire.
I thought I would make my own Bio diesel, not remembering that I am waaaaay to lazy to attempt something like that. Although if they made me mad enough...

It really infuriates me when I know the the oil is literally coming out of the ground under my feet, to read what they pay for a gallon of gas in other oil producing countries, and then realize how badly bent over we are here. There are major efficiencies to be gained by using vegetable fuel in a diesel engine, that's been proven in Germany, where a large portion of their diesel is bio fuel. In fact the original invention ran on vegetable oil.

fire truck · Post by **fire truck** » November 5, 2011, 10:56 am

I guess I didn't make my point clear, and I don't so much disagree with Charlie just looking at a different view.

The old problem with diesel is like Charlie said, the mindset that diesel is dirty and smokey coupled with the olds diesel issues.

The new problem is like I said before, the cost. People don't like to spend more money on an engine that burns more expensive fuel and costs more to maintain. It takes a lot of miles to break even, more miles than most people keep their cars.....

unibody madness · Post by **unibody madness** » November 5, 2011, 11:51 am

I am not expert by any means,nor conspiracy nut but have driven in Europe off and on since 74. In the states we have had scandals such as the National city lines and Key system scandals, occurances that forced us into cars, engineered by gas, tire, and auto giants. We have vast amounts of space and resources Not so in Europe, they are more limited in size and resources.
It amazes me that back then the VW bug was our economy car, over there they were parking them for poor gas mileage.
Here in the states we had the Mercury Capri averaging 18 MPG and in Portugal, my cousin was driving its twin, labeled F O R D across the hood getting about 28 MPG in gas!
I was there last in 2005 rented a diesel Ford Escort wagon for a month, traveled an average amount, only filled the tank twice and topped it off upon return, I was absolutely thrilled with the handling and response, Its counterpart here is a joke
The kicker is I never put diesel in it. The majority of the stations offer both. but everyone uses what they call gasoleo.
Back then diesel was selling for 1.26 E a liter and gasoleo was going for .96 Ea liter, thats a dollar thirty a liter. 4.92 a gallon !!!. Europeans will walk if things get too expensive, here we are more spread out and will drive a block to 7-11 .
True we are talking smaller vehicles and I am pretty sure it would change with our trucks and larger,but concider this:
My sons 61 styleside with a 223 and t-98 was getting between 18 and 23 mpg. My 2002 Dodge Dakota averages 18 at best.
As stated before our fuel went up when they took the lead out.
Our mileage went down when they added all that smog equipment
Gas went up when they added mtbe
Gas went up when they took it out.
It is not doing anybody any good to reduce pollution out the tailpipe per gallon,if we are using more gallons per mile.
I wonder how much prices are affected by wall street instead of supply and demand?
So far I am not willing to modify my driving behavior enough to effect a large enough change as I am sure much of you are not either. I wonder what the tipping point will be