Need help determing how bad I screwed up.

[bird55]

That cam and lifter set is a bargain. Wish I could get em that cheap for yblocks

[TxSlick66]

There is a good REASON for not moving USED lifters around on a USED cam.

USED lifters have the wear pattern work-hardened into them and will chew up the cam if put on a different lobe.

NEW lifters can go anywhere as they are not workhardened and do not have any pattern on them at all to cause wear.

That said, I rebuilt a 351W in a 79 T-Bird once. You could barely tell the cam was a cam with all the crud it had caked on it, and the rest of the inside of the engine matched. I put the lifters back in whichever hole I could get them to go into. Worked at least the 100 miles I used it before I sold it. (I know... sorry about that). Heck, that thing might still be running and that was almost 20years ago. Ot ir may have flattened a lobe the next day for all I know. It is risky. You must assess how much risk you are willing to take.

New cams call for new valve springs if you do not go with a stocker. Valve springs that have been seeing about 0.350" lift for about a zillion cycles will snap if they go to seeing 0.460 lift all of a sudden. And that is NOT PRETTY. Use same lift cam and you are OK.

[BigMike]

There is a good REASON for not moving USED lifters around on a USED cam.

USED lifters have the wear pattern work-hardened into them and will chew up the cam if put on a different lobe.

NEW lifters can go anywhere as they are not workhardened and do not have any pattern on them at all to cause wear.

That said, I rebuilt a 351W in a 79 T-Bird once. You could barely tell the cam was a cam with all the crud it had caked on it, and the rest of the inside of the engine matched. I put the lifters back in whichever hole I could get them to go into. Worked at least the 100 miles I used it before I sold it. (I know... sorry about that). Heck, that thing might still be running and that was almost 20years ago. Ot ir may have flattened a lobe the next day for all I know. It is risky. You must assess how much risk you are willing to take.

New cams call for new valve springs if you do not go with a stocker. Valve springs that have been seeing about 0.350" lift for about a zillion cycles will snap if they go to seeing 0.460 lift all of a sudden. And that is NOT PRETTY. Use same lift cam and you are OK.

Great info, thanks.

[Bill W]

new lifters = some kind of "brake in" oil i would think.

[BigMike]

new lifters = some kind of "brake in" oil i would think.

Probably use a break-in additive to some Valvoline 30w Racing Oil

[Toyz]

One last thing. The oil we now have does not have the lubrication value of the old oil, since our wonderfull knowitall government has dictated that the lubrication part be taken out. As a result, be carefull when breaking in a new cam. Even with new lifters and old cam I would be carefull. I don't know if anyone makes a special cam break in oil but I suggest you use it. Possibly Royal purple has more zink than the rest. I'm sure someone can help out on this subject. You should already know not to use the wrong oil filter, as some will restrict oil flow.

Rich

What?
Why, it must be another plot by those auto manufacturers to assure they will sell new replacement vehicles by extending oil change intervals.
There are a lot of factors that have had a part in engines now lasting considerably longer than those in my younger years.
However, when you run a modern turbo-charged engine for over ten miles with a non-working oil pump, pull the engine down and see absolutely NO obvious damage, it's hard to believe that the "lubricity" of modern lubricating oils has declined.
I don't claim to be anywhere near an authority on the subject, but I do work for the people that not only refine the oil, but also have enough confidence in it to have lengthened oil change intervals in extremely critical equipment.
As far as cams and lifters and their interface, I don't have any concrete knowledge one way or the other.
I do question whether any lifter in a non-roller, average street usage engine is going to remain in the exact same orientation as prior to being disturbed simply by removing or loosening the remainder of the valve train.
Yes, racers would shudder at the thought of putting a lifter in a new position.
That probably has a lot to do with the idea of decreasing any possibilty of failure under very adverse conditions, including extremely high valve spring pressures.
I have seem FE lifters worn to the point of being worn through on the surface contacting the cam, and yet very thorough inspection and measurement of the corresponding lobe indicated no measurable deviation from spec.
Would I replace the cam or lifters on a street engine in similar circumstances?
No, I personally would NOT, without some evidence of impending damage.
As to metal contamination in the oil, I am going to expect a quality oil filter combined with the oil pump screen and a magnetic drain plug to eliminate most of any potential of metal circulation. I would certainly change and closely inspect, maybe even send off for analysis, the oil after a few miles after re-assembly. Yes, metal particles smaller than ten microns can and will damage engine conponents; however, any engine is going to accumulate some metal debris in the break-in and wearing process.
These comments are stictly my opinions, based on personal experiences; your mileage may vary.
I would be very interested in hearing of any concrete experiences that might invalidate my opinions.

Paul

[R Pope]

Twenty years ago, I had a couple of 351W's, a '69 Torino and an '82 LTD engine. The old goodie was frost cracked, and I just slid the cam and lifters into the newer engine without any thought of keeping the lifters in the right order. After all, the different block was going to be a little bit off as to how everything lined up anyway, right?
Be that as it may, the engine went 60 thousand miles before, yeah, the cam lost a lobe. I stuck a Comp cam in it (This time with new lifters!) and it is still running. Or it will be when I get done bolting it in my '66 Slick.

[64 f100]

The washer that needs to be discarded is the spacer washer on the cam behind the timing gear. The washer was done away with on later production engines and will cause grief if used with a modern timing set as it will have the cam gear riding against the aluminum housing. I have this from personal experience. A truck I bought, had the timing set repalced by some amatuer mechanic and in the end I did not know it. Lost the rods and main shortly after I bought the truck. As to changing the cam, you will be better off changing that as opposed to changing the intake, as far as improvement in power. The only reason for changing to a four barrel intake is improvement in economy. That is, if you keep your foot out of the other two barrels of the carb. You can do the same thing on a two barrel engine by going to a smaller carb. You will loose power on the upper end and speed with the reduction of carburation though.

Rich

[Jonas]

The washer that needs to be discarded is the spacer washer on the cam behind the timing gear. The washer was done away with on later production engines and will cause grief if used with a modern timing set as it will have the cam gear riding against the aluminum housing. I have this from personal experience. A truck I bought, had the timing set repalced by some amatuer mechanic and in the end I did not know it. Lost the rods and main shortly after I bought the truck. As to changing the cam, you will be better off changing that as opposed to changing the intake, as far as improvement in power. The only reason for changing to a four barrel intake is improvement in economy. That is, if you keep your foot out of the other two barrels of the carb. You can do the same thing on a two barrel engine by going to a smaller carb. You will loose power on the upper end and speed with the reduction of carburation though.

Rich

Thanks Rich, I could not remember, but I had a friend have a macine shop rebuild his 390. He assemble, made the mistake. He was so discouraged he never finished the truck. Out big money.

The question is where does it stop. For 1200-1500 bucks, there is a great Ford Guy here(Parks Nash). Older timer worked with Holman Moody in the day. He knows FEs inside and out. Turn that 352 into with 390, he will grinda a fireball cam. Best 1500.00 you couls spend. Give you 50 + more HP, Hardened Valve Seats, and with a 4V 4 more miles pergallon.

Truck already has hedders and nice exhaust.

[BigMike]

Just order the Sealed Power (Federal-Mogul) lifters from Summit Racing for $3 each and they will be here tomorrow (there are about 30 miles away).

I'm taking a break from the Slick today to organize things. But I am going over to my buddy's house tonight to use his big new sandblasting cabinet. Going to clean up the hinges and headers for repaint. Not sure what color the hinges were stock, but I'm going black or silver, haven't decided yet.

[Jonas]

Just order the Sealed Power (Federal-Mogul) lifters from Summit Racing for $3 each and they will be here tomorrow (there are about 30 miles away).

I'm taking a break from the Slick today to organize things. But I am going over to my buddy's house tonight to use his big new sandblasting cabinet. Going to clean up the hinges and headers for repaint. Not sure what color the hinges were stock, but I'm going black or silver, haven't decided yet.

Mike I don't blame you that is a good running truck. You probally did, but you should recheck all the mounting holes for the intake. make sure they are dry. Can cause weird torque problems. Hydra lock (?).

[Effie]

Bear with me, I didn't read completely all the posts... I'm in a bit of pain this evening.. so if this was said already, I apologize....

The lifters is a worry though. But, when building Harley engines "they say" the same thing. But if you have an old cam and new lifters, how is the wear pattern any different to the cam?

Lemme see if I can do this without confusing you or me. Haha.

Say you've got used lifters on #1 cylinder.. intake and exhaust. Those are worn to those lobes, you have to put intake and exhaust back where they came from... its not about the lobe wear on the cam independently... or wear on the lifter independently..... its about how they're worn TOGETHER...

Where as, a brand new set of lifters on an old cam... well, those new lifters are all brand new, flat and shiny, so they can wear to fit the worn lobe on the cam. Because every one of those 16 lifters in that new kit are exactly the same.

Its not like intake being worn one way to fit the intake lobe and exhaust being worn to fit the exhaust lobe...

Does that make sense?

And yes, my first thought was not the coolant... other than the mess, but the lifters falling out.

On the oil... Rotella diesel oil still has the zinc in it and that's what we use for break in oil.

[Toyz]

http://www.fordmuscleforums.com/garage/ ... one-2.html
There are a bunch of Rotella oils. Most are now CJ-4, ie, low ZDDP.
To my knowledge, Mobil One Extended is one of the few remaining quality oils stated to still have the previous amount of ZDDP. I would think that modern technology has found an adequate replacement for the zinc, but I have no knowledge of specifics.
BTW, "flat" tappets are anything but.
They are crowned, and if found to be "flat" on the contact surface, they are "scrap". The offset positioning of the tappet and the slight taper engineered into the corresponding lobe surface are designed to force the tappet to rotate.
Take your new lifters and butt them together with lobe contact areas facing each other, and you will readily note the crown.
As far as an assembly lube, I'm sticking with the cam manufactuers requirements and recommendations.
This is also true as to following the recommendations included with replacement lifters.These manufacturers/ distributors may certainly recommend above and beyond, but I find it hard to believe that they would suggest anything which might increase the potential of failure in a warrantied product.
On our older vehicles, I seriously doubt that there is any increased danger as to installing the old tappets as long as nothing else is being done to increase contact area pressure. The new tappets may actually have a reduced contact area in relation to the old ones, because of the crown. This reduced area is in fact capable of accelerating wear, due to the same loading being applied to a potentially reduced area.
Paul

[Hunter's 64]

http://www.zddplus.com/

i run this in my jeep with a 4.6 stroker, They have flat tappet cams also.

Danny

[Toyz]

r

Thanks everyone for the advise and Skip, thanks for the words of encouragement. I still feel like a dumbass because I know better.

I'll buy a new set of lifters and install them. NAPA and Advance sell Sealed Power lifters for $4 ($64/set)(Fegeral-Mogul). Does anyone think it is work an extra $10 to buy Edelbrock Performer-Plus Cam Kit - Replacement Lifters for $74?



I removed the rag from each intake port and I feel extremely confident that no water go in the cylinders.

While I was sitting here cussing, I was tempted to say WTH and buy this stuff. But I'm already $600 over budget and might have to sleep in the garage with the Slick if I do.

Edelbrock 2106 - Edelbrock Performer-Plus Cam and Lifter Kits $155 (makes the cam only $80)


Edelbrock 2105 - Edelbrock Performer Intake Manifold $300


Edelbrock 1405 - Edelbrock Performer Carburetor $200

And where do you stop? Edelbrock insists you use their (actually their suppliers')
valve springs. OK, so do you replace the valve springs and seals and stop there?
What about the increased travel of all components involved; do you do a valve job also?
As to any added value to Edelbrock packaged lifters; to me it depends on how much value you feel is associated with the name. There are no where near as many state-side cam blank and tappet manufacturers as there are brands of cams.
Oh , BTW, since you are replacing lifters, you might want to check them against lifter bore, just to make sure!
Do you see where all this is heading?
FE's if anything over-lube the top end. Unless you see or suspect excessive wear, since you stated that you have been happy with the engine, it looks to me as if you have two viable options; Replace everything which MIGHT be worn, or diligently inspect the parts you have removed and put it together!
Take two lifters as I suggested and butt them together; if both are still crowned, and you see nothing more than a wear pattern without surface distortion, then you may want to carefully inspect the cam lobes. If you see no indication of excessive wear in line with the lifter bore, my choice would be to re-use the parts with a liberal coating of cam assembly lube.
It's called assembly lube for a reason; once the components have "worn in" to each other, they should be separated by the oil film, thus negating most need for extreme pressure wear additives. the cam manufactures all have similar instructions regarding "break-in".
The tappets, whether new or old, are not going to be in the exact same relationship to the cam lobe from bore to bore; if that lobe is worn enough to keep that oil from doing its' job that thin oil film, then both components should be replaced, as well as the attendent items mentioned, including timing chain assembly, etc.. Maybe you should also inspect cam bearings at that point.
If there is no noticable deterioration of the "contacting" surfaces, I fail to see a large potential for failure.

[BigMike]

Great discussion and info - awesome guys!

The new lifters came from Summit Racing yesterday. The $48 is good piece of mind. The engine only has about 30k miles on since it was rebuild 10 yrs? ago.

As I haven't been around older engines in a while, I wasn't aware of the issues with oil and flat tappets. After reading the (marketing hype) ZDDPlus website, I'll go with that stuff. The oil will only get changed twice a year so another $10 for the ZDDPlus won't hurt. Looks like a lot of different products out there so I guess you have to pick one and go forward.

Hoping to get the engine back together today. I dug out my Clevite assembly lube yesterday.

[William-in-St George]

Mike, Google camshaft breakin! This is a critical step to having your engine survive. I use a cheeeveee additive that is loaded with zink. Your local GM parts guy will know about this stuff. Then change the oil and filter right after breakin and use delvac for diesel engines (walmart). Cut the filter open and look for shiny particles (this would be bad news). Might get slapped but check out fordtruckenthusiasts site FE engine forum. You will be impressed. William-in-Atlanta has retired to Saint George Utah.

[BigMike]

Mike, Google camshaft breakin! This is a critical step to having your engine survive. I use a cheeeveee additive that is loaded with zink. Your local GM parts guy will know about this stuff. Then change the oil and filter right after breakin and use delvac for diesel engines (walmart). Cut the filter open and look for shiny particles (this would be bad news). Might get slapped but check out fordtruckenthusiasts site FE engine forum. You will be impressed. William-in-Atlanta has retired to Saint George Utah.

Thanks William. The ZDDPPlus stuff, according to them, is better than the cheby stuff. I'll use it with every oil change to up the Zinc.

Just got the new lifters in and got every spec of oil off of the block to mate the intake. The moment of truth. :_)

[charliemccraney]

Crane or one of them sell a Moly lube specifically for cam break in. It's like grease and goes on the lobes and the faces of the lifters. It's good stuff. They have it at Summit but you might be able to find it at a local store. Barnett might have it. They're a lot closer.
RE oil, most manufacturers have the specs of their oil available for download from their website. Find an oil with appropriate protection for older engines and save yourself money on the additives. Some oils are advertised on the bottles to be for use in older engines.

[BigMike]

I got the intake on. What a bitch, even using an engine lift. But it is on there right and should not leak. I don't know how someone would put one of them on with the engine in the truck without a lift and it not leak.

I went to NAPA and bought the intake gasket that didn't block the exhaust crossover. I don't need any headaches.