Crown vic, rim selection
Crown vic, rim selection
I'm putting in an 05 cv front clip. It appears my stock 66 steel rims will not longer work. I want to keep the stock appearance. Anyone know where to pick up some steel rims that will fit the cv clip that look period correct? I don't want 20 inch rims. Thanks
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1965fordf100
- Posts: 483
- Joined: February 25, 2008, 3:32 pm
- Location: Reno, NV
Re: Crown vic, rim selection
In theory, 4.75" backspacing on an 8" wide rim is going to result in somewhat detrimental situations. The resultant track width is wider than the already wider track of the stock CV wheels; thus the wheel not now centered between the bearings, and may stick out too much for clearance or appearance. The extended line drawn through the center of the spindle mounting points also now intersects the pavement at a point inside the center of the tire contact patch, which deteriorates handling and response.
Are these major concerns? Probably not for normal usage, assuming no rubbing. One would probably do better by attempting to find a wheel in the +38 to +50 mm. positive offset , similar to the original CV's. Appearance wise, the wider front track just magnifies the effect of the narrower slick rear track width. This can be alleviated with adapters to allow the same offset wheels to be fitted on the rear, or by going to a re-drilled pattern on a later model rear end assembly. Giving the truck the original wheel appearance can be done, since the original wheels were somewhat narrow, an after-market wheel with original style design, but positive offset, will yield the same "non-deep dish" look of the originals.
I might add that other conversions with positive offset wheels , such as the Jag, result in the same situation, albeit to a lesser degree.
To simplify this info, an original appearing wheel of seven or eight inch width with the CV 5 on 4.5 pattern and a backspacing of 5" plus, will help maintain the "tucked" look, enhance handling, and with the use of adapters, allow the same wheel front and rear. If you prefer the big 'n little look, an original appearing rear wheel up to 10" width with the original 5.5 bolt circle and offset could be purchased.
Keep in mind that the CV front requires a minimum of 16" wheel diameter to clear.
Paul
Are these major concerns? Probably not for normal usage, assuming no rubbing. One would probably do better by attempting to find a wheel in the +38 to +50 mm. positive offset , similar to the original CV's. Appearance wise, the wider front track just magnifies the effect of the narrower slick rear track width. This can be alleviated with adapters to allow the same offset wheels to be fitted on the rear, or by going to a re-drilled pattern on a later model rear end assembly. Giving the truck the original wheel appearance can be done, since the original wheels were somewhat narrow, an after-market wheel with original style design, but positive offset, will yield the same "non-deep dish" look of the originals.
I might add that other conversions with positive offset wheels , such as the Jag, result in the same situation, albeit to a lesser degree.
To simplify this info, an original appearing wheel of seven or eight inch width with the CV 5 on 4.5 pattern and a backspacing of 5" plus, will help maintain the "tucked" look, enhance handling, and with the use of adapters, allow the same wheel front and rear. If you prefer the big 'n little look, an original appearing rear wheel up to 10" width with the original 5.5 bolt circle and offset could be purchased.
Keep in mind that the CV front requires a minimum of 16" wheel diameter to clear.
Paul
The Ford Orphanage
Life's too short for boring vehicles!
My quest to develop a universal solvent is held up by the lack of a storage container.
Paul
Life's too short for boring vehicles!
My quest to develop a universal solvent is held up by the lack of a storage container.
Paul
Re: Crown vic, rim selection
Nice reply toys.... Thanks
Nic
Nic
Re: Crown vic, rim selection
Wow, thanks toys. Very good information, I had to read it twice to take it all in. Thanks again!
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luckystiff
- Posts: 124
- Joined: July 28, 2013, 8:23 am
- Location: Hickory,NC
Re: Crown vic, rim selection
jag does NOT have high positive offset wheels like the cv. SO many unfounded truths on that swap it's getting unreal. stock jag wheels for the years those donors were ran 15x6 - 15x7 wheels with offsets of 24-28mm. the dayton wire wheels that were an option were to my knowledge the biggest exception as they were either 32 or 34mm offset. the wires looked to be more of a high positive offset than they actually were.
as far a what to use for the crown vic front if you want factory style wheels your best bet is to have someone like wheelkid, pete paulsen, etc MAKE a set with the correct offset for you. it's not as expensive as you think it will be. i think the last set i had made were around $600 for paintables but thats been several years......
as far a what to use for the crown vic front if you want factory style wheels your best bet is to have someone like wheelkid, pete paulsen, etc MAKE a set with the correct offset for you. it's not as expensive as you think it will be. i think the last set i had made were around $600 for paintables but thats been several years......
Re: Crown vic, rim selection
First, original post was concerning CV wheels. With apologies to the original poster, as well as to our membership; I will once again offer you verifiable facts. My remark was simply a clarification that the CV swap is not unique in the belief that a zero or negative wheel offset is a correct solution. Anything else you choose to take from that is your choice. Unfounded truths, uh, not quite. Just truths! In your own words as well as mine, they ARE positive offset wheels!
What part of my statement are you having trouble understanding? It seems to me to be pretty self-explanatory, as well as accurate. The Jags in question, as you so eloquently stated, DO originally utilize positive offset wheels, and the excellent suspension is designed for exactly such wheel application.
Time and again, you seem to take exception to any accurate description concerning the Jag conversion, while spouting things which just don't pass the smell test as to costs, applications, and time required for completion. Nowhere have you bothered to correct your misstatements regarding applicable wheels. Is it simply that you have little knowledge of basic steering/ suspension design? If you have been involved in as many of these conversions as you repeatedly state; you are well aware of the inaccuracy of your statements.
BTW, since you have publicly stated your supposed time frame for completion of these conversions, just how is YOURS coming along?
I happen to like the Jag conversion, I am also aware of it's shortcomings. I still have little against it other than people describing it as the be-all low budget solution. Facts are facts; in most cases, the Jaguar conversion is NOT the cheapest or most user friendly when compared to an engineered conversion such as the Industrial Chassis. You speak of six hundred dollar custom made wheels; yet have stated that one should be able to do a complete Jag conversion for roughly that TOTAL cost. Take that $600; you are well on your way toward the purchase of the Industrial Chassis kit, which, I understand, can utilize original style and pattern wheels and still end up with an original offset usable for both front and rear. Even the lowly M-II based kits can utilize the original bolt pattern; some people might consider that an advantage of itself.
There is room in the market for a variety of options; let's just stick to concrete facts so people have an opportunity to weigh their choices.
I am a pretty accomplished wrecking yard scrounger; I also happen to own and have owned various Jaguars. Your continuous statements as to costs and timeliness for your favored options just lack accurate documentation.
Both of us are aware of people involved in both conversions involving slicks; their comments would be both appreciated and respected.
Paul
What part of my statement are you having trouble understanding? It seems to me to be pretty self-explanatory, as well as accurate. The Jags in question, as you so eloquently stated, DO originally utilize positive offset wheels, and the excellent suspension is designed for exactly such wheel application.
Time and again, you seem to take exception to any accurate description concerning the Jag conversion, while spouting things which just don't pass the smell test as to costs, applications, and time required for completion. Nowhere have you bothered to correct your misstatements regarding applicable wheels. Is it simply that you have little knowledge of basic steering/ suspension design? If you have been involved in as many of these conversions as you repeatedly state; you are well aware of the inaccuracy of your statements.
BTW, since you have publicly stated your supposed time frame for completion of these conversions, just how is YOURS coming along?
I happen to like the Jag conversion, I am also aware of it's shortcomings. I still have little against it other than people describing it as the be-all low budget solution. Facts are facts; in most cases, the Jaguar conversion is NOT the cheapest or most user friendly when compared to an engineered conversion such as the Industrial Chassis. You speak of six hundred dollar custom made wheels; yet have stated that one should be able to do a complete Jag conversion for roughly that TOTAL cost. Take that $600; you are well on your way toward the purchase of the Industrial Chassis kit, which, I understand, can utilize original style and pattern wheels and still end up with an original offset usable for both front and rear. Even the lowly M-II based kits can utilize the original bolt pattern; some people might consider that an advantage of itself.
There is room in the market for a variety of options; let's just stick to concrete facts so people have an opportunity to weigh their choices.
I am a pretty accomplished wrecking yard scrounger; I also happen to own and have owned various Jaguars. Your continuous statements as to costs and timeliness for your favored options just lack accurate documentation.
Both of us are aware of people involved in both conversions involving slicks; their comments would be both appreciated and respected.
Paul
The Ford Orphanage
Life's too short for boring vehicles!
My quest to develop a universal solvent is held up by the lack of a storage container.
Paul
Life's too short for boring vehicles!
My quest to develop a universal solvent is held up by the lack of a storage container.
Paul
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luckystiff
- Posts: 124
- Joined: July 28, 2013, 8:23 am
- Location: Hickory,NC
Re: Crown vic, rim selection
dude i have not idea what your deal is but..........
you need to do your own reading up. there is a nig difference between the positive offset that are standard to most rwd cars that have been used for common donors for many years and the HIGH positive of more modern donor like the CV. rarely to you see factory applications with NEGATIVE/REVERSE offset wheels. you do know that zero offset means that the center of the wheel is DEAD CENTER of the barrel and negative offset means they are REVERSED and the center is inset and center moved towards the BACK of the wheel and Positive(High Positive in the case of CV) wheels it's moved toward the FRONT edge of the barrel. some folks seem to get this confused.
the $600 custom offsets i mentioned would be for CROWN VIC NOT JAG. my jag swap has can fit 15x8 with 4 1/4" of back space with 205/70/15 wheels with the truck sitting at a level a dakota swap would have to have the frame Z'd to reach with no rubbing. i say that and i actually LIKE the dakota swap also.
i've done more than my share of study of chassis/suspension design. 42 and been working on this stuff since i was 15. have actually worked with chassis builders learning what works in certain situations and WHY it works in those but not all.
steve at IC has even stated the Jag is a well designed unit but of course is going to push Dakota as thats what he also considers to be worth AND oh yeah he makes a crossmember to put it in your truck.... what about the fact he freely admits there are "issues" with the available Drop Spindles? Bell Techs i beleive but i could be wrong but it wouldn't suprise me as i think out of all the bell techs i've ever put hands on about half of them were subpar at best.
i've done enough of the jag swaps to know it's a worthy donor. i actually want to do a dakota swap and a local friend has been talking about it as how he may go and guess what I HOPE HE DOES so i can actually see it in person. but i know to get to the ride height i seek dakota means either a Z or correcting the issues with the spindles that get you the coupla other inches i would be looking for.
oh and the suspension on my uni has been done for over a year other than a coupla hours to finish boxing the rails. now it's all on doing floors/steps/rockers/torque box/bedfloors/and a whole bunch more rust repair/fab work to the very rusty big window i started with. unfortunately i took a job an hour+ each way to/from work and just to be honest haven't touched ANY of my projects in close to 6 months. i welded the new front clip on my 67 vw squareback the week before i started and it still sits in front of the garage waiting for me to clean up the welds and get doing the few patches the fenders and donor clip need. i was hired to work a local hub that has been delayed because EPA got involved after an inspection found the lifts had leaked in the ground and i'm probably stuck with this commute at least 4-5 more months
you need to do your own reading up. there is a nig difference between the positive offset that are standard to most rwd cars that have been used for common donors for many years and the HIGH positive of more modern donor like the CV. rarely to you see factory applications with NEGATIVE/REVERSE offset wheels. you do know that zero offset means that the center of the wheel is DEAD CENTER of the barrel and negative offset means they are REVERSED and the center is inset and center moved towards the BACK of the wheel and Positive(High Positive in the case of CV) wheels it's moved toward the FRONT edge of the barrel. some folks seem to get this confused.
the $600 custom offsets i mentioned would be for CROWN VIC NOT JAG. my jag swap has can fit 15x8 with 4 1/4" of back space with 205/70/15 wheels with the truck sitting at a level a dakota swap would have to have the frame Z'd to reach with no rubbing. i say that and i actually LIKE the dakota swap also.
i've done more than my share of study of chassis/suspension design. 42 and been working on this stuff since i was 15. have actually worked with chassis builders learning what works in certain situations and WHY it works in those but not all.
steve at IC has even stated the Jag is a well designed unit but of course is going to push Dakota as thats what he also considers to be worth AND oh yeah he makes a crossmember to put it in your truck.... what about the fact he freely admits there are "issues" with the available Drop Spindles? Bell Techs i beleive but i could be wrong but it wouldn't suprise me as i think out of all the bell techs i've ever put hands on about half of them were subpar at best.
i've done enough of the jag swaps to know it's a worthy donor. i actually want to do a dakota swap and a local friend has been talking about it as how he may go and guess what I HOPE HE DOES so i can actually see it in person. but i know to get to the ride height i seek dakota means either a Z or correcting the issues with the spindles that get you the coupla other inches i would be looking for.
oh and the suspension on my uni has been done for over a year other than a coupla hours to finish boxing the rails. now it's all on doing floors/steps/rockers/torque box/bedfloors/and a whole bunch more rust repair/fab work to the very rusty big window i started with. unfortunately i took a job an hour+ each way to/from work and just to be honest haven't touched ANY of my projects in close to 6 months. i welded the new front clip on my 67 vw squareback the week before i started and it still sits in front of the garage waiting for me to clean up the welds and get doing the few patches the fenders and donor clip need. i was hired to work a local hub that has been delayed because EPA got involved after an inspection found the lifts had leaked in the ground and i'm probably stuck with this commute at least 4-5 more months
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luckystiff
- Posts: 124
- Joined: July 28, 2013, 8:23 am
- Location: Hickory,NC
Re: Crown vic, rim selection
to the og poster i have seen a few trucks including a local(ish) bumpside that used cv and used the cop car steelies and i like that set up better than the mustang wheels ALOT of people run with the cv swap.
but i will agree with Toyz(see we do see eye to eye sometimes) that if you want to keep the wheels you already have i'd probably take the money custom offset wheels are gonna cost and put that towards the IC Dakota crossmember and go that route. i actually would pick it over cv swap anyhow but if keeping 5x5.5 is the goal it surely moves to the top of the list......
but i will agree with Toyz(see we do see eye to eye sometimes) that if you want to keep the wheels you already have i'd probably take the money custom offset wheels are gonna cost and put that towards the IC Dakota crossmember and go that route. i actually would pick it over cv swap anyhow but if keeping 5x5.5 is the goal it surely moves to the top of the list......
Re: Crown vic, rim selection
I am NOT some folks! I trump you by a "high" margin on both years of experience, and obviously, knowledge of modern suspensions, and, oh, BTW, I have certifications to back up that knowledge. I am rather certain you have not a clue as to the reasons behind the move to "FWD" offsets, (your words), even on trucks.
The donor Jags have exactly what I have stated, positive offset wheels! Your words, my words; what are you objecting to while you spout remarks verifying the obvious truth? If you are unable to translate your own stated dimensions, I can help! Your own stated dimensions represent better than one inch per wheel of POSITIVE offset! You have repeatedly misrepresented the details of the Jag swaps, and obviously intend to continue to do so, although evidently not even able to make up your OWN mind as to the facts. I stated Jag had positive offset wheels, including my remark "albeit less than the CV". You jump in and state your interpretation of the offset in mm. Darn, sounds like a positive offset to me! You can divide offset categories any way it makes you happy; the numbers remain. 28 to 36 mm. is a considerable positive offset, especially on a 6" wheel, whether you consider it to be "high' or not. You continue to challenge any information you consider critical of your choice of 30 year old swap components, as well as deny concrete details which you feel might sway someone from a Jag conversion.
I don't know Steve; my guess would be he developed his kit because he felt it was a marketable alternative to other options. He doesn't knock other choices to my knowledge, nor do I! I WILL put the facts out there and challenge information I know to be false, incomplete or misleading! If someone asks details of any swap or option, I feel they deserve accurate facts in order to make an informed choice. Your spiel of costs in low hundreds, as well as time required for completion, just don't ring true! I believe your words were "in one weekend"; that seems a little optimistic for even a questionable quality conversion, in my opinion!
I would be more than happy to read of any documented proof that you can actually do either on a repetitive basis.
Paul
The donor Jags have exactly what I have stated, positive offset wheels! Your words, my words; what are you objecting to while you spout remarks verifying the obvious truth? If you are unable to translate your own stated dimensions, I can help! Your own stated dimensions represent better than one inch per wheel of POSITIVE offset! You have repeatedly misrepresented the details of the Jag swaps, and obviously intend to continue to do so, although evidently not even able to make up your OWN mind as to the facts. I stated Jag had positive offset wheels, including my remark "albeit less than the CV". You jump in and state your interpretation of the offset in mm. Darn, sounds like a positive offset to me! You can divide offset categories any way it makes you happy; the numbers remain. 28 to 36 mm. is a considerable positive offset, especially on a 6" wheel, whether you consider it to be "high' or not. You continue to challenge any information you consider critical of your choice of 30 year old swap components, as well as deny concrete details which you feel might sway someone from a Jag conversion.
I don't know Steve; my guess would be he developed his kit because he felt it was a marketable alternative to other options. He doesn't knock other choices to my knowledge, nor do I! I WILL put the facts out there and challenge information I know to be false, incomplete or misleading! If someone asks details of any swap or option, I feel they deserve accurate facts in order to make an informed choice. Your spiel of costs in low hundreds, as well as time required for completion, just don't ring true! I believe your words were "in one weekend"; that seems a little optimistic for even a questionable quality conversion, in my opinion!
I would be more than happy to read of any documented proof that you can actually do either on a repetitive basis.
Paul
The Ford Orphanage
Life's too short for boring vehicles!
My quest to develop a universal solvent is held up by the lack of a storage container.
Paul
Life's too short for boring vehicles!
My quest to develop a universal solvent is held up by the lack of a storage container.
Paul
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luckystiff
- Posts: 124
- Joined: July 28, 2013, 8:23 am
- Location: Hickory,NC
Re: Crown vic, rim selection
how many jag suspension swaps have you done? NONE......... then how do you have any idea how long one takes? i can drop all the straight axle suspension out from under one in a coupla hours. then a coupla hours of leveling and rechecking frame to correct and tweaks. i know where to locate the front crossmember now putting the wheel center EXACTLY where i want it so theres no figuring that out now. i've learned several tricks to lining the crossmember up i had never seen anyone mention(even on extensive topics on the jag on the HAMB and several aussie and uk sites) before. so add an hour or so more and you should have that crossmember tacked in place at the end of a 5hr day. progress from there i will say will probably largely depend on person doing the work and the equipment they are using as it's pretty much a day of finish welding the crossmember, adding any gussets as you see fit, front shock mounts but i've found a ready available good options for less than $40, boxing as you see fit(i box from the stock front crossmember to just before the cab on a 61-64, more than necessary and probably more than most would). thats probably a full day but if you're quick(or had a hand to make it quicker) ending the day with cleaning everything up and painting it so it can dry overnight is a great way to finish out the day. another day of re-assembling the jag front and it's now a roller which is what i've always said as a can be done "in a long weekend or two weekends" i believe is how i usually state it. steering can be easy or hard. adapting the stock column to the jag rack will take longer than a universal column and floor shift. engine mounts can go from from you gotta make 'em for most stuff or should you choose sbc mounts for that to the stock jag mount points are readily available. those details control how long the driver-driver time frame are and unless you know all of that it's hard to say thats why i say "roller" status time. the first few i did took longer but i've learned tricks to help it along with every one i've done. i've also learned things that aren't worth the time. i'd probably not do another notched into the rails like i did my 62. plenty of ways to get that coupla inches but i wanted to try it and see. just like i want to do one that bolts in via the stock jag mounts but that's gonna have to be someone else's as it wouldn't be as low as i want.
as far as parts cost i post quite freely where i find reasonable priced parts for the jag. i've also post MANY times the one item that is HARD to find at a reasonable cost is the rack itself. i've said many times if the donor ones looking at has a shot rack only get it if it's your only choice as they are currently $300-500 depending on who you know. maybe i've been lucky in the fact that my source for donors does nothing but XJS and maybe those staying as higher dollar cars still they seem to be better maintained. the donor i put in my neighbors 52 f1 had a fresh rack, new control arm bushings, new tie rod ends, new ball joints, and all the brake components weren't much older and we had to shell out a whole $250 for it. the one in my uni needed ball joints and lower control arm bushings.
now with that i've said my peace. you can try and discredit what i say if you like............
as far as parts cost i post quite freely where i find reasonable priced parts for the jag. i've also post MANY times the one item that is HARD to find at a reasonable cost is the rack itself. i've said many times if the donor ones looking at has a shot rack only get it if it's your only choice as they are currently $300-500 depending on who you know. maybe i've been lucky in the fact that my source for donors does nothing but XJS and maybe those staying as higher dollar cars still they seem to be better maintained. the donor i put in my neighbors 52 f1 had a fresh rack, new control arm bushings, new tie rod ends, new ball joints, and all the brake components weren't much older and we had to shell out a whole $250 for it. the one in my uni needed ball joints and lower control arm bushings.
now with that i've said my peace. you can try and discredit what i say if you like............
Re: Crown vic, rim selection
Got me convinced! Hell, I'm bound to have a spare weekend and a couple of hundred dollars; and I've certainly got access to the components! I probably better watch some more reality TV first , though! I wouldn't want any delays or overruns!
Paul
Paul
The Ford Orphanage
Life's too short for boring vehicles!
My quest to develop a universal solvent is held up by the lack of a storage container.
Paul
Life's too short for boring vehicles!
My quest to develop a universal solvent is held up by the lack of a storage container.
Paul
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390fastback
- Posts: 131
- Joined: December 15, 2012, 4:44 pm
Re: Crown vic, rim selection
CV swap on my 62 uni, stock 17" CV wheels painted tremclad recreational white.
just for reference...
just for reference...
62 short-uni, cv front swap, 4.6/auto
plus many other's!
plus many other's!
Re: Crown vic, rim selection
I like the way those CV rims look. I will look into the custom rims, just to see. I already have the CV clip, so I'm not sure about the Dakota clip.
Do the 17s rub at all? This is my concern with the 17s......plus I just like the original look.
Do the 17s rub at all? This is my concern with the 17s......plus I just like the original look.
The weathers here, wish you were beautiful.
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390fastback
- Posts: 131
- Joined: December 15, 2012, 4:44 pm
Re: Crown vic, rim selection
The fronts rub just barely, and only on full lock coming up the curb. Its in storage right now but I think I have 235/55/17 on the front. Pretty sure I could get away with a 235/50/17.
62 short-uni, cv front swap, 4.6/auto
plus many other's!
plus many other's!
Re: Crown vic, rim selection
Thanks 390 fastback. Is the front clip at stock ride height?
Have you tried the 17s in the rear?
I'm assuming the rear has been flipped, but again I'm guessing. Thanks
Have you tried the 17s in the rear?
I'm assuming the rear has been flipped, but again I'm guessing. Thanks
The weathers here, wish you were beautiful.
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390fastback
- Posts: 131
- Joined: December 15, 2012, 4:44 pm
Re: Crown vic, rim selection
Yup, front is stock CVPI, stock springs and no notch in the frame. I was going to lower it, but not going to do tthat now. Will eventually bag it similar to sin-bin. Right now the rear is a late 90's Explorer rear with disk brakes flipped to the top of the axel. I'm running 17x9 cragars on the rear with 275/40/17.
Should mention I did notch the frame for the rear flip, but I also have a 93 Mark VIII that's going to give up its power train and rear end for this truck.
Should mention I did notch the frame for the rear flip, but I also have a 93 Mark VIII that's going to give up its power train and rear end for this truck.
62 short-uni, cv front swap, 4.6/auto
plus many other's!
plus many other's!
Re: Crown vic, rim selection
Wow that sounds sick. Never thought of the Mark rear end, cool idea. Looking forward to seeing that thread.
The weathers here, wish you were beautiful.
Re: Crown vic, rim selection
390fastback do you know the offset of your vic wheels? Or what year/model vic they came from? I have a different style vic wheel on mine. they are 16" in diameter. I like the way yours looks better than mine, gives the illusion of having more of lip than the style I have.
http://i57.tinypic.com/2emmsdu.jpg
http://i57.tinypic.com/2emmsdu.jpg
66 Layin Low
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390fastback
- Posts: 131
- Joined: December 15, 2012, 4:44 pm
Re: Crown vic, rim selection
They're off an '06. Apparently that was the year the brakes got bigger and 17" is the smallest I can put on. |For an offset measurement, you'll have to wait til the weekend when I head to my 'other house' and grab one of the extra rims I have.
Danimal, do a search, you'll find a few builds on here with that rear end. Theres also tons on the Fordification site.
Danimal, do a search, you'll find a few builds on here with that rear end. Theres also tons on the Fordification site.
62 short-uni, cv front swap, 4.6/auto
plus many other's!
plus many other's!