Slick 60's

Decided that since Mother Nature wasn't set on Kill today I'd try to get these Wesco performance belts in my truck: http://www.wescoperformance.com.
I bought a set for the F 100 and a set for my 68 fairlane vert..

The belts are around $70 a side plus I sprung for a hardware kit for $9 each side.
All told, with two cars I spent around $300 with shipping. Took 2 hours.

I 1st installed the female part through an existing hole in the floor pan.
If I get a center lap belt later I'll move these inboard a bit and redrill.

I don't really like how the belt kind of gets looped back towards the tank when the seat is slid all the way back.
Optimally the tank gets relocated and these can mount further back.






The first go around netted this as a solution.
Think it would rip the tank open in a crash?
Sure ya do.









Next up the shoulder restraint.
I kinda eyeballed this thinking about how tall my family is,
what happens if I put in a booster seat for my kid and how much metal
am I using to attach through.

Like every inch of this truck- its battleship thick.
I could chew through most of my newer cars.

Pro tip: Be careful not to let the bit blow through and divot your sailpanel outer skin area on the cab.
I used a shouldered bolt that came with the hardware kit.
It has a shoulder that fits the bigger hole in the bracket so it will swivel.
I backed it up with a threaded plate like the one I used underneath to hold the female end. I may drill a couple holes and spot weld them later when my tank is out.



(bracket used under the truck-same as what's behind sail panel)




Finally, I debated how to mount the retractor and dead belt end.
Using one hole isn't an option.
The instructions say not to plus you are putting all your eggs in one
basket so to speak by doing so.
I opted to mount this stuff in shear on the footwell.
The hardware kit has some nice L brackets but the floor boards in my truck are rusty and compromised.
I also thought this may look ugly mounted that way.
This way is OK.

Swapping mounting locations may put the retractor on a flat spot in
the footwell but I think it would cross the belt when buckled.
Maybe if you do this you can experiment.

The dead end of the belt gets the shouldered bolt and a fender washer backer.
Again its all in shear so it should be plenty tough.







I had these in my 70 Torino I wrecked at 60mph+.
They kept me off the hood and I think I used even smaller fender
washers in the floor.
I did however have 2 factory mount points and used the
OEM hardware in those locations.



Happy motoring!

*typical disclaimer crap - no clue if this is DOT approved.
In my case its a step up from a steel dash and non collapsable
steering column.
Feel free to critique my engineering and hardware choices.

I like it. Looks like what's in some 80s chevys. Does the retractor work like the ones that go tight when you jam on the brakes and slack when you are cruising?

soultron wrote:I like it. Looks like what's in some 80s chevys. Does the retractor work like the ones that go tight when you jam on the brakes and slack when you are cruising?

Yes, I find they are quite a bit more sensitive than any OEM retractor.
They lock as you pull to buckle them if you are too quick.

Looks good, Phil. Nice writeup, too.

I didnt take any pics as it was going together, I rarely do.... so you have to make believe a wee bit....



the backing plates are steel sheet, about 1/8 thick, torched out and bent to fit snugly between the door frame and the window frame, they fit snugly enough to be firmly trapped in a crash. No questionability of the factory spotwelds coming out.


the reinforcement for the retractor. again, substantially over-engineered, but I like it that way.



the center backer. It also has a chunk of Leaf spring that you cant see welded to the top, fits into the channel under the floor.

This is also overkill I know, but with 3 people anchored to it, I dont want to take any bloody chances.



retractors from some Jap car, mounted to floor. They have little covers that need to be modified to fit the seat. Probably won't do it.... They've been naked for about 5 years now.....







Especially in things like this, Overkill is very good. Think about it....

lol, I just realized how old and forgotten this thread is....


I just noticed something though, that we were talking about in class today- Aircraft crash survivability.... Airplane or not, same applies.


The point being that in the pic with the belt latched, the shoulder belt and buckle attaches somewhat in the "middle" of the lap belt. - Ie the buckle straps are kinda long.

This can apparently lead to a LOVELY little phenomenon known as "Submarining" where the shoulder belt pulls up on the lap belt hard enough that it allows you to slide out from under it...

to prevent that possibility, the straps that go from the buckles, through the seat to the floor should be in the neighborhood of 3-4 inches shorter.



I know it might not be likely, but it's always quite possible, and this "safety science" Master's degree is making me think WAAAY too much about stuff like this! LOL.... I have always tried to make stuff as safe as possible though! And I'm still a dumb kid....

Safe is good, in this case, as is overbuilding. I haven't done an in-depth analysis, but some quick calculations show that travelling at 30 mph and coming to a stop in approximately 3 feet results in an average deceleration of 9 to 10 g. Which means that a 250-lb occupant could exert a force approaching 2500 lb. If that force is evenly distributed among all three points, then 833 lb is exerted on the mount at the sail panel.

40 mph to 0 in 4 feet results in a 12.5 g deceleration, so that force would increase to 1042 lb. And that's a conservative estimate based on average deceleration. In reality the deceleration would be non-linear with a much higher maximum. Federally-mandated crash tests use 60 g as a maximum instantaneous deceleration for survivability. That's 5000 lb per point.

How thick is the steel in the sail panel? Is it thicker than 14 ga? I've never taken a close look at mine. It's a pretty complex geometry and there are a lot of variables involved so a detailed analysis would be necessary to absolutely determine the strength of the panel. Pull testing a panel to destruction would be helpful too. It's difficult to say how the panel would behave, and how the door pillar and window frame would fare in a collision. If they were compromised it would affect the panel's integrity as well.

It is true that the corner "sail panel" or siffener would probably fail sooner than a 2010 DOT approved third shoulder anchor.

But often the debate has been between a simple lap belt or a proper shoulder belt. In my opinion, so what if the corner fails at #500 pull and I hit the steering. I still will have hit the steering that much less hard.

And if the collision is a little slower, it will hold. In other words, better than nothing or a lap belt by far.

So for the real worriers, go ahead, cut the corner stiffener out, have some heavy guage metal shaped and welded in. Repaint your cab. Hope you sleep better...

Also -- there are some threads that show complicated brackets that are riveted in place etc etc. It really is much more simple than that if you own a welder or have a friend (hell, I'll do them for any Slick member)

Here's the trick.

Decide on the location of the thrid point. Try to use a point that will distribute the pull evenly, so somewhere in the middle, side to side at least. Up down is more dependent on your height. Drill the hole though the stiffener in the correct location.

Now measure from the top of the stiffener down to the hole and add 6". Get a piece of 1/4" x 1" strap steel. Drill a hole so that 1/2" will peak over the top of the stiffener.

Weld a nut to the strap iron. (double nut with one on each side and DON'T use the good bolt -- use one you can thow away, as it will have slag etc on it)

Install the corner headliner. Locate the hole with measurements and drill though headliner as well (locate with nail or scratch awl first)

Dangle the strap iron backer down from above and start your bolt from the 3rd point.

Only thing to remember is: You cannot remove the thrid point bolt or the backer will fall down.

If that worries you, I guess the rivets or some sheeet metal srews or even a couple spot welds would cure that.

Worked for me......

cdherman wrote:
But often the debate has been between a simple lap belt or a proper shoulder belt. In my opinion, so what if the corner fails at #500 pull and I hit the steering. I still will have hit the steering that much less hard.

If you look at the design of many 3 point belts, if that 3rd point was to give way, you essentially no longer have a seat belt. It will result in the tension of the belt being released so not only might your head hit the steering wheel, you may be ejected from the vehicle if there is enough energy.
My Firebird has dual retractors, one at the floor, and one at the 3rd point with this type of setup, if one of the two let go, the other will not loose it's tension. From a safety standpoint, I think it is superior. With more parts, there is a higher possibility of failure but with over 130K miles on them, they seem to have been designed well. A third point retractor might be a little unsightly.
I installed seat belts so I can drag race. Otherwise I probably would not have installed them. It has crossed my mind as to how safe that panel is for the 3rd point.

cdherman wrote:It is true that the corner "sail panel" or siffener would probably fail sooner than a 2010 DOT approved third shoulder anchor.

I'm not advocating building to modern crash standards, nor am I attacking anyone who has done the install. I was only looking to add to the discussion, and used the 60 g deceleration as an example of the potential magnitude of forces present in a collision.

cdherman wrote: In my opinion, so what if the corner fails at #500 pull and I hit the steering. I still will have hit the steering that much less hard.

And if the collision is a little slower, it will hold. In other words, better than nothing or a lap belt by far.

So for the real worriers, go ahead, cut the corner stiffener out, have some heavy guage metal shaped and welded in. Repaint your cab. Hope you sleep better...

Absolutely, if the corner were to yield it would absorb some energy which is the whole point of safety belts. That is, reduce the magnitude of deceleration experienced by the occupant. And I agree that it would be better than a lap belt, and in a large enough collision any damage to that corner would be a moot point anyway, as the truck would probably be a write-off.

I don't think the corner panel needs to be extensively reworked, but I do expect that placement of the anchor is key, as is the design of the backing plate. The 1.5" x 3" anchor plates may be sufficient, but larger is always better and I would think by looking at the shape of the panel that placement in the middle would be preferable (as you've described and Charlie showed in his post).

For what it's worth I'm not concerned that the anchor and backing plate would be pulled completely free of the panel, but I think the anchor should be designed such that it will survive reasonable impacts. That is, collisions that don't cause damage to the cab structure. I wouldn't want to have to repair that panel after a collision where the only other damage is to the front sheet metal, for instance.

It does sound like yours distributes the force over a fairly large area, which is good.

blackagatha wrote:lol, I just realized how old and forgotten this thread is....


I just noticed something though, that we were talking about in class today- Aircraft crash survivability.... Airplane or not, same applies.


The point being that in the pic with the belt latched, the shoulder belt and buckle attaches somewhat in the "middle" of the lap belt. - Ie the buckle straps are kinda long.

This can apparently lead to a LOVELY little phenomenon known as "Submarining" where the shoulder belt pulls up on the lap belt hard enough that it allows you to slide out from under it...

to prevent that possibility, the straps that go from the buckles, through the seat to the floor should be in the neighborhood of 3-4 inches shorter.



I know it might not be likely, but it's always quite possible, and this "safety science" Master's degree is making me think WAAAY too much about stuff like this! LOL.... I have always tried to make stuff as safe as possible though! And I'm still a dumb kid....

Again old thread

Your point is well taken on the latched pic.
However I am a fatass.

I experienced overmarining® on my Torino so I know
all too well this can happen. I put in a cloth webbed bench seat
female end because it looked OEM VS the recommended ugly
plastic bucket seat end. Unfortunately it put the buckle over my
groin VS my rt hip.
My spin at 65mph coupled with impacting a tree in the rear



resulted in me sliding out from behind the shoulder belt and
sliding over the lap belt further resulting in

Me hitting the console




and rolling up into the windsheld and getting glass in my back

That raises a good point Phil. The anchor points need to be able to carry loads in multiple directions, not just a straight pull from a head-on collision.