Slick 60's

I am considering putting a close ratio Borg Warner T19 four speed in my 66. The T19 has a synchronised 1st gear so you can drive it easier than a granny gear T18. T19 close ratio gears are 4.02 2.41 1.41 1.00. With a 2.73 rear gear ratio it will be like similar to using an overdrive with the 3.70s I have now. Anybody have any thoughts on this?

I just bought a 3 + OD SMOD tranny for my slick after doing some research and asking questions here. Most everyone that has this setup likes it but some say it is not real strong and it has quite a jump between 2nd & 3rd. After reading the articles Hawkrod posted about Drive shaft whipping/speeds I got thinking that may also be a small drawback to a OD trans.

I think I will be quite happy with my choice but I also was thinking that a nice setup, that is a "nuts & bolts" install, would be either a t-19 or a "toploader" with a 3.25/3.50 third member. No granny to deal with, nice shift ratios, durable, and a slower turning drive shaft.

jwh f-100 wrote:I just bought a 3 + OD SMOD tranny for my slick after doing some research and asking questions here. Most everyone that has this setup likes it but some say it is not real strong and it has quite a jump between 2nd & 3rd. After reading the articles Hawkrod posted about Drive shaft whipping/speeds I got thinking that may also be a small drawback to a OD trans.

I think I will be quite happy with my choice but I also was thinking that a nice setup, that is a "nuts & bolts" install, would be either a t-19 or a "toploader" with a 3.25/3.50 third member. No granny to deal with, nice shift ratios, durable, and a slower turning drive shaft.

A two piece driveshaft can be used in a trans with a slip yoke, it just never moves. That is how actually assembled Supercabs in the 70's! Hawkrod

Yeah I thought about the SMOD but can't find one, several T19's in the U-pull-it yards for $160. Heres a comparism, the 1st two are SMOD with a 3.55/3.73 rear gear, the second close ratio T19 with a 2.73/3.08 rear gear. Those gear ratios are for 8.8 rear axles and would be slightly different for 9" Fords with 3.70, 3.50, 3.00 or 2.75 gears.

Ratios Speed in gears RPM after shift RPM 65 MPH in top gear
1st 2nd 3rd 4th Final Drive 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 2nd 3rd 4th
3.29 1.84 1.00 0.81 3.55 25 44 82 101 1957 1902 2835 2256
3.29 1.84 1.00 0.81 3.73 24 42 78 96 1957 1902 2835 2370
4.02 2.41 1.41 1.00 2.73 26 44 75 106 2098 2048 2482 2142
4.02 2.41 1.41 1.00 3.08 23 39 67 94 2098 2048 2482 2416

Can you get a T-19 in the early Ford bellhousing pattern? I know they made close ratio T-19's for Jeeps, among others, but they have the later Ford pattern, don't they? Bolting up to a 240/300 should be no problem (I would think), but what about the 223 with the non-SBF pattern?

zac wrote:Can you get a T-19 in the early Ford bellhousing pattern? I know they made close ratio T-19's for Jeeps, among others, but they have the later Ford pattern, don't they? Bolting up to a 240/300 should be no problem (I would think), but what about the 223 with the non-SBF pattern?

I have been wondering myself just what pattern the Ford T98A pattern is.

Here's some quick math for percentage of RPM drops for the respective tranny's, it shows the big jump from 2nd to 3rd on the SMOD, the T19 looks much beter in my opinion. The M5OD-R2 has an even nicer gear spread but is hard to find for cheap and has several issues, hydraulic clutch, no speedo drive on later ones, reliability issues from the leaky seals, expensive to repair and just not as strong as a T19. If the Jeep NV3550 was available in a 2WD version I think it would be a great tranny for a slick, there are conversions for an early Bronco with 4WD of course. The T19 swap looks promising without the high driveshaft speed the OD trans would have. Driveshaft speed with T19/3.08 gears at 65 MPH would be 2416 while the M5/3.73 drivshaft speed would be 2926 PM!

1st to 2nd 2nd to 3rd 3rd to 4th M5 OD
SMOD .56 .54 .81
T19 CR .60 .585 .71
M5OD .58 .666 .666 .80

Well I picked up a T19 today out of a 1987 diesel F250, it has the 4.02 1st gear. I need to get my brakes fixed and get a baseline MPG and performance with the 3 speed/3.70 gears and then switch to the 4 speed and 3.25 gears and see what difference there is.

What year did the t19 come out?

Thanks,
Rich

64 f100 wrote:What year did the t19 come out?

Thanks,
Rich

You must have been sleepy Rich I posted it was from a 1987 F250 LOL.

I think he wanted to know what year the T19 was first built/used.

Now we have to figure out if one will bolt up to a T98 bell housing. And find one for me.

Looks like 74 - 85

http://www.motivegear.com/tech_info/tra ... guide.html


Glad this came up. I was thinking my donor truck had a T-18 behind it's 300. The 300 is from the 70s so I guess I better take another look at the trans.

Grits, I'm leaning toward no. I did read some where some of the "toploaders" had two bolt patterns and would also bolt up to the 223/y-block bell pattern.

Think I saw it here. About halfway down. http://www.streetrodderweb.com/tech/080 ... mance.html

Jason: The link you posted says the T18 was: "Used in Ford trucks 1956-73" which I would think should include Y-Blocks and the 223 "6", but only the T98 is mentioned in the 61 Ford Truck Shop Manual (and 62/63 Supplement).

Got to take the 292 w/T98 out of the parts truck to see if a T18 or T19 will bolt up (if I can get it done before Bluebolt installs his). Everything I read indicates that the cases of all three are "essentially" the same (whatever that means).

Gritsngumbo wrote:Jason: The link you posted says the T18 was: "Used in Ford trucks 1956-73" which I would think should include Y-Blocks and the 223 "6", but only the T98 is mentioned in the 61 Ford Truck Shop Manual (and 62/63 Supplement).

Got to take the 292 w/T98 out of the parts truck to see if a T18 or T19 will bolt up (if I can get it done before Bluebolt installs his). Everything I read indicates that the cases of all three are "essentially" the same (whatever that means).

That is interesting I didn't even notice that, cool. Let us know what you find. If that didn't work for you I wonder if a 292/3 speed bell would be "the ticket".
What does Little red have for a trans.. tear it apart.. mearure stuff... LOL OR just measure the trans mounting bolts.

Matt, form Mass. has a TOD behind a 292, would be cool to know how that was done.

Sorry to babble. I don't even have a 223/y-block, just cool truck stuff.

We eye-balled the 3 speed bell and it won't work. Little Red has a T98 behind a 223. I want to pull the 292/T98 out of the parts truck anyway, so I can sell off the pieces and get it out of the way..

[quote="jwh f-100

Matt, form Mass. has a TOD behind a 292, would be cool to know how that was done.

Sorry to babble. I don't even have a 223/y-block, just cool truck stuff.[/quote]

The TOD is still toploader based, although the old "small" pattern bolt holes are not drilled you may be able to drill the old pattern and then use a 3 speed bell.

bluebolt wrote:Well I picked up a T19 today out of a 1987 diesel F250, it has the 4.02 1st gear. I need to get my brakes fixed and get a baseline MPG and performance with the 3 speed/3.70 gears and then switch to the 4 speed and 3.25 gears and see what difference there is.

I wanted to document the removal process for anyone else interested before I forget LOL. It's pretty simple but there are a few tricks I learned.

1.The shifter comes out by unscrewing the "cup" at the base and then wiggling out the shifter. This one was already unscrewed.

2. The later 1980 up F series are part metric bolts and part standard so bring both to the junkyard. I didn't and had to make do.

3. Remove the driveshaft to tranny yoke u-bolts and center driveshaft bearing and move the driveshaft out of the way.

4. Remove the four trans to bellhousing bolts and the two crossmember to trans mount bolts. 1 bellhousing bolt was gone and the other 3 were loose, if I had waited any longer the tranny may not have been there! Someone had started taking it out. Remove the wiring for the reverse light switch, you may want to cut it on the OTHER side of the conector like I did so you can have reverse lights if you want.

5. Jack the tranny up so it does not have weight on the trans crossmember. I used a small screw car jack I found.

6. Remove the trans crossmember. The one I had was metric bolts and the upper ones were real hard to get to. After spending lots of time getting a few off I cheated and used the Craftsman 19.2V sawzall and just cut the crossmember out. I also sawalled the speedo cable in half.

7. Lower the jack and wiggle the transmission out. A long 2x8 board that was laying in the back of a truck became a nice lever to help wiggle it out without me being right uner the tranny.

8. You have got it out and you are done! Pick up your tools and the bolts you removed. Be careful this tranny is very heavy, don't let it fall on you or pull your back loading it up.

I measured some tranny's I had laying around. Note these were quick comparism measurements at night, not precise ones LOL!

3 speed car toploader out of 68 Torino
Input shaft length 5 1/8" from tranny face to end of splines plus 1 1/8" tip for pilot bearing.
"New" pattern was 8 1/2" apart side to side top and bottom, "old" pattern was 5 1/8" apart on top and 6 1/4" apart on bottom

4 speed OD SROD out of 1983 V8 Mustang/Capri
Input shaft length 6" from tranny face to end of splines plus 1" tip for pilot bearing
Was drilled for both old and new pattern.

4 speed T19 out of 1987 F250 diesel
Input shaft length 5 1/8" from tranny face to end of splines plus 1 1/8" tip for pilot bearing.
Apears to have new pattern 8 1/2" apart side to side top and bottom
No way to do old pattern, you would be inside the case!

What's a TOD? Toploader Overdrive?

Gritsngumbo wrote:What's a TOD? Toploader Overdrive?

Check out this page for TOD, SROD and SMOD info.

http://www.motivegear.com/tech_info/tra ... guide.html