An "Investment" Car

Johnny Canuck · Post by **Johnny Canuck** » July 31, 2007, 7:12 pm

BigTim wrote:I like the sleeperness, sleeperism, what ever. You know the sneak up on you part of them. Who would ever expect a Granada to run in the 10s.

No one.

Be like seeing a Gypsy Moth in space.

Max · Post by **Max** » July 31, 2007, 7:22 pm

Spot on, mate. Perfect analogy!

DV65CustomCab · Post by **DV65CustomCab** » August 1, 2007, 5:56 am

JC, I disagree. Naturally.

The turbo 2.3 is actually a very tough engine. What it is NOT is a smooth engine.
The early turbos were carbeurated, and those weren't impressive.
Once they went to FI, things changed, and they actually became a formidable performer.
Probably worst was the German gearbox they originally came with. We blew up a couple of those on experimental turbo Capri #1 I helped tinker with back in the day when these cars were still somewhat new. We also managed to break them behind the stock 2.3.

I've seen far too many T-Birds, SVOs and XR4ti's that ran impressively to allow you to demonize the mighty turbo Pinto motor.

Johnny Canuck · Post by **Johnny Canuck** » August 1, 2007, 7:40 am

Here's my (limited ) experience with that motor. In '79 I ordered a new Mustang Cobra. I had test driven the turbo Mustang and the 302, and there wasn't even a comparison, plus they wanted MORE MONEY for the turbo

The 5.0 would walk all over the 79 turbo, the turbo didn't even start to kick in till about 2500 RPM if I recall correctly, and it was a total slug off the line.. So, a V8 is what I ordered. Several months later, while I was waiting for my Mustang to arrive, as I ordered it in March and didn't get it til July, I met a kind of friend of a friend of mine, who had a Capri RS turbo. His was 6 months old and was smoking already. The engine on it was toast within the year. He said he had spoken to other turbo owners who all had the same problem, they were trying to round up some kind of class action suit.

I never again saw one that wasn't smoking. It was rare, by the eighties to find one that still had the orig. motor, most guys (including Greg D on this board) had by then swapped in a small block V8. Turbo 4 a wonderful motor? Yeah, right, If you say so Dwight.

I'll pass.

Post by **Greg D** » August 1, 2007, 8:09 am

JC the 79 Cobra I had was a Turbo built car that had a 302 swapped in, It however was that way when I bought it. Your buddys 79 would have been the early style system. I had an 80 Merc Zepher Z7 Turbo 2.3 with an AOD. Was kinda fun for a grocery getter but I wasn't hugely impressed with it either, a V6 pinto would laugh at it. One of the EFI Turbo 2.3s would change your mind on one, especially if it were a SVO or a 87/88 Turbo Coupe Intercooled car. The later cars were a whole different animal but then again they were also a different engine, they share the same block, cubic inches, are turbo charged, and are still a Ford thats about the end of the similarities. Maybe Hawkrod can to bring his SVO Stang to SS 08 (or I will if I get one by then) and take you for an enlightenment ride.

BigTim · Post by **BigTim** » August 1, 2007, 1:35 pm

Back in the 80s my wife's friend had one of those 79 Indy Pace Car Mustangs with some kind of 4 cylinder. She drove it like she stole it for years. Smoke was a big part of that cars personality. Far as I can remember, never did break down.

DV65CustomCab · Post by **DV65CustomCab** » August 1, 2007, 4:55 pm

'79, first year of production. Again, a carb'd turbo, which is never a good idea. IIRC, that was a draw-through system, which was only slightly more reliable than a blow through (like on a horrid car like the Maserati Biturbo...I can tell you fun stories about those).
Most people who bought them had no idea of how to treat a turbo car, and I doubt Ford did much to educate them. Oil cooled turbos will coke up the oil lines pretty quickly, and when that happens it's only a short walk to a bad turbo seal and then the mosquito killing cloud you are familiar with.
I don't recall the cost of each car, but let's be fair and admit the 5.0 in 79-81 or thereabouts was pretty anemic also.
I drove a SVO once. That is a car that will quickly change your opinion. They were more expensive than the V8, but it was also a superior car in many ways (much improved suspension and far lighter).
Once fuel injection hit them they were all pretty good, though the maintenance issue would still rear it's ugly head. Frequent oil changes and allowing the turbo to 'spool down' after running were important. With the advent of water cooled turbos, most of these problems went away. This is why you generally don't see problems with newer turbo cars.
I had a friend with a '79 RS Turbo Capri who was a tinkerer. He put an adjustable wastegate on it and that thing would run with most V8s at 14 lbs of boost. However, he could make the exhaust manifold cherry red, blew up several of the aforementioned gearboxes, and ultimately (guess...c' mon....you know the answer...) fried a turbo seal and made smoke.
The infancy of the turbo period...until Chrylser made them commonplace, this was pretty typical. Even Saab (who pretty much invented the successful turbo car) had similar issues until the species evolved.

bigtrip460 · Post by **bigtrip460** » August 1, 2007, 5:07 pm

I had an xr4ti once. It was a quick lil ride. A "sport compact" that I actually didnt mind driving.

Post by **Greg D** » August 1, 2007, 6:35 pm

bigtrip460 wrote:I had an xr4ti once. It was a quick lil ride. A "sport compact" that I actually didnt mind driving.

Those are actually pretty cool, they were basically the SVO Mustang & Turbo Coupe technology donor. Ford of Europe makes some pretty cool rides.

Johnny Canuck · Post by **Johnny Canuck** » August 1, 2007, 8:00 pm

DV65CustomCab wrote: I don't recall the cost of each car, but let's be fair and admit the 5.0 in 79-81 or thereabouts was pretty anemic also.
.

Since I had to order one, because all the 5.0's were automatics for the beginning of the production run it seemed, or at least all the ones around here, it seems to me the engines were both rated at the same HP.. 145? or so, and the price diff was in the 3-400 dollar range more for the turbo. The car in total cost me $7611, so that was an option that made NO sense after driving it, to me.

I was only 20 at the time, and my dad came along with me to check things out. We tried the turbo first, then when I got in the (automatic) 5.0, I was pulling out of the Ford dealer here in town, and laid about 15-20 feet of rubber, after having got used tohaving to put my foot to the floor and pop the clutch on the turbo to get any kind of response. Dad had a big grin on his face that I can still remember to this day.

We didn't have to drive it a lot to figure out which one to choose, for $400 less. Remember, ALL American cars were pretty anemic at the time, and the new Mustang was LIGHT, so even with those numbers it hauled arse like a rocket compared to a '78, or any camaro/firebird of the time. I put quite a few of them fat hogs in the weeds with my mustang, the trans am of the time had some pitiful 301 turbo that was like riding a freakin' bicycle, so far as acceleration went.

I also put any Turbo Mustang I ever went up against away with my 302, although , admittedly I never went up against a later turbo SVO, because NO ONE BOUGHT THEM after the '79's and 80's turned out to be such a POS. In fact Ford had quite a few quality problems in '79 , I had 3 of their samplings of that year, and would certainly not brag about the 351M in my truck or the RUG transmissions or the retarded single drive belt system in the Mustang and later Capri that I had.

Post by **Greg D** » August 1, 2007, 8:57 pm

That was one thing Chrysler had a handle on, their water cooled Turbo cars were fairly well mannered had good performance, and were reliable. I had one of their best, 1986 Dodge Shelby Charger, it being based on what used to be the Dodge Omni, it rattled etc. Hammer the go pedal and it'd put such a grin on your face you didn't care if the doors fell off. I used to regularly wax 305 Z-28s, carbed 350 Z-28s (just couldn't quite take a 5.7 TPI car though) and their Pontiac clones. I did however make the mistake of choosing off with a Mustang 5.0 once and got my arse handed to me in a basket. All in all a real fun little car, and it WAS a Shelby.

The SVO is historically important, Fords first attempt at a world class performance car built on American soil. The 84 I drove back in 86 made a huge impression on me that I will likely never forget. I have never given up on owning one. Lol, I was watching one on Ebay this week but Long Island is a long way to tow it (had a blown rear end). The main thing that killed the SVO was that gas didn't rise in price as much as predicted back in the mid 80s so why buy the SVO at thousands more than the GT with gas still cheap. Another nail in it's coffin is sitting right here at my house, the 85 GT 5 speed car with it's roller cam 302. It was up like 35 horses from 84 and actually topped the SVO for HP the 84 GT didn't, again thousands less. Performance nuts lamenting the loss of muscle car era and still in shock as to the values they were getting for early Stangs were primed for a 4bbl carburated hot rod that was capable of laying out nearly a half a block of rubber. Ford sold 42,428 Mustang GTs in 1985. I was selling at a Ford dealership then. You couldn't find a 85 Mustang GT but we had a very pretty copper 84 GT vert sitting in the showroom. Try to show it to some one and you would hear "That's nice, I want a 85 GT with the roller cam". There are very few stock ones left out there though.

Phil · Post by **Phil** » August 2, 2007, 8:29 am

This is my buddy Brian Rasey's car
He had this mill in a beat 85 Ford Ranger. You would not believe how many people lost to this truck at the track and on the street.

It was scary fast. You'd see it roll away from a green light and hear the BOV and whip around looking for a SRT 4 somplace and all you'd see is a beat red Ranger with Weld prostars on it. The truck doubled as the trash can at cruise nights.

He is big on the Merkur engines. The car was built in Germany but the engines were done here. They came with a standalone wiring harness making for an easy swap. Someday I'll do a 64 Falcon 2.3 Turbo.

2.3 wrote:Welp...the time has come my friends.I am finally getting off my fat ass and going to put this pile together.I guess I just needed some time to get my personal life back on track and needed something to get the bug going again. Stuff like helpin Fred with his ride,wrenchin on Crystals Bird,the lack of people wanting to go off roading with me.....its all helped me get focused again on whats really important.....hearing people say "Did you see that thing leave?? And its only a four banger!!"

So here I present to you my cherry 85 GT in all its glory.

The plans are to install the old motor from the Ranger that went 12.50's @ 111mph while pushing the head gasket out, but no more stock T3 and stick shift.This time around I will be using a Holset HX35w and a C4 auto with a trans brake.Boost will be in the 28-30psi range and the NoS will be upped from the 75 shot to at least a 100 shot.With the brake leaving with no boost will not be a problem anymore as I will be able to launch with as much boost as the tires will hold.And some of you thought 1.70 60fts looked good back at RaceWars??? You aint seen nothin yet.
I have also ditched all the stock electronics in favor of a SDS DFI stand alone system so all tuning can be done on the fly with a hand held display unit.
Here is a few shots of the slug thats going in the car.

There is also a second head sitting on the bench with a huge roller turbo grind cam waiting for the right time to be swapped on to replace the ported head with a stock cam I have on it now.I expect the car once its done and tuned to run deep into the tens with no problems,it will come in lighter than the Ranger did and will hook even better plus an additional 150-200hp over the truck setup.

I plan on making at least weekly updates to this thread until its done.
Plans for this week are to finish the rear end and rear suspension,maybe more.

Johnny Canuck · Post by **Johnny Canuck** » August 2, 2007, 9:33 am

You've got to admire a guy with that much time/money on his hands..

Post by **Greg D** » August 2, 2007, 6:44 pm

That is VERY HOT Phil, 28-30 psi WOW. Would love to see soem dyno figures on that too. Great looking car too. Thinkin Ford shoulda included Yellow in the choices in 85. Where is that posted so I can follow up later on it?

Phil · Post by **Phil** » August 4, 2007, 6:09 pm

Johnny Canuck wrote:You've got to admire a guy with that much time/money on his hands..

Time yes, recently divorced and sober.

Money no, strictly meat and potatoes builds from Brian.
He's like me, messed up priorities

Greg, Brian is one of the "low tec" crowd on Toledo Tuners,
Toledo's local event/streetracing/Track racing/dirty ricer forum. You have to sign up.
And/Or if you want I'll keep updates coming just cause I watch his posts and stop at his house from time to time.
I bought his Torino Wagon and recently sold it. It was a great car but I wanted a Uni:

He works for Ford and goes by "Death by PSI" on TurboFord
and the other turbo forums.

PS the 302/AOD wagon is FS

http://www.torinocobra.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1079

Johnny Canuck · Post by **Johnny Canuck** » August 4, 2007, 8:01 pm

Funny you should bring that up. just saw one of those "Rare" 75-ish Montego wagons with the scoop hood too. dead stock in poo brindle green. I think they came with 429s or something I remember reading.

Post by **Greg D** » August 4, 2007, 8:11 pm

That is a pretty nice wagon. I have to admit the first thing that went through my mind when I saw the pic though. Graft in 2 door doors and fill in the rear windows & make it a panel, add a 385, etc. etc. etc. I need help.

Johnny Canuck · Post by **Johnny Canuck** » August 4, 2007, 8:54 pm

All it really needs is a housewife in curlers and a housecoat and fuzzy slippers, with a fag hanging out of her lips, and 14 rugrats with chocolate all over their faces to make it complete

Phil · Post by **Phil** » August 4, 2007, 9:35 pm

Greg D wrote:That is a pretty nice wagon. I have to admit the first thing that went through my mind when I saw the pic though. Graft in 2 door doors and fill in the rear windows & make it a panel, add a 385, etc. etc. etc. I need help.

Man that is freaky you say that.
My buddy in Denton TX has a 11 sec 545 71 GT. He saw a couple guys build some Plymouth 2 door wagon. He decided to go one further. He bought a 71 Wagon and some full chromo tube frame ARCA (or something-I'm not a NASCAR guy) chassis. He wanted to build a 200mph 2 door wagon.

Well the 2 door deal fell through because the roof and door lines were way too different. Pretty soon the 200Mph chassis fell through too.
He bought a sweet boat instead

http://www.torinocobra.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1177

I miss my wag. Its like a slick. A totally different automotive experience. Very nostalgic feeling for an era I didn't really live through

Phil · Post by **Phil** » August 4, 2007, 9:37 pm

wow I hijacked the crap outta this thread.

I have to admit I laughed outloud at work when I read the 1st post