Slick broke down in Va.

6166 Junkyard Dog · Post by **6166 Junkyard Dog** » December 23, 2007, 8:11 am

Went yesterday to pick up Banjopickers slick that was having some issues
460 automatic
BUT Before loading seeing what we can do,,
Heres the problem
Hit the gas and past 1000 RPM'S gets all choked up,,,
NOW THIS HAS BEEN CHANGED
NEW Dist., starter solenoid, wires have been checked, firing order checked,
NOW When changing the ignition box on the firewall to a new one , it blew out the muffler and motor seems to want to start but then runs backwards, BUT the one time it did start it run perfect run way up there in the RPM'S, Shut it off then will not start CHANGE Back to the old box and started right up BUT STILL will not run right past 1000RPM"S,, We also disc. the Tach to be sure it was not getting feed back through it,, all 3 boxes are teh blue ones and the dist has a blue dot on it so that means that it should match to the blue box
HE Was talking to Garbz when I got thereas well
I think it has to be electrical bu where

POSSIBLE Getting a bad dist. and bad ignition bos at the same time

Well I have the truck here for a few days

Phil · Post by **Phil** » December 23, 2007, 9:20 am

well you guys probably know more about motors than me but how bout the basics?

What is timing set at?
New dist-is a duraspark?
Are you sure all 8 are firing?
Compression test?

Gonna assume firing order is correct
1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8

The backfire would suggest timing to me.
My truck is doing something similar.
Runs fine until it hits highway speeds then power tapers off.
I do know my dist isn't advancing at 3K rpms-gotta fix that

6166 Junkyard Dog · December 23, 2007, 10:00 am

Compression would have nothing to do it since when switching a 3 boxes all 3 do different problems,, firing order ok,, advance or retard timing does no different,, gas is not a issue since going back to the boxes all 3 do different things,, personally I would go back to points, so when there is a problem its only one thing,, COIL Has been replaced as well with a new one,, its electrical like I said it can be possible getting a bad dist or ignition module I would think

Ranchero50 · Post by **Ranchero50** » December 23, 2007, 10:12 am

Personnally from experience I'd toss the durajunk and put a Crane or MSD box on and use the dizzy pip pickup to fire the Crane box. I'm partial to Cranes (burned up too many MSD's welding on peoples cars. Every Ford I've owned or driven with the duraspark ended up with points or a box conversion.

Jamie

Hawkrod · Post by **Hawkrod** » December 23, 2007, 11:47 am

It actually sounds like a Duraspark wiring issue. The Duraspark is actually one of the most amazing ignition systems out there and even Dr. Jacobs ( http://www.performanceintl.com/jacobs.html ) said the Duraspark was amazing and could be used on race cars running as fast as 9 seconds or so (he used to have an upgrade available but now they sell you stuff instead). The problem with the duraspark is mostly the fact that aftermarket parts do not work the same way as originals. I do not know teh history of this problem. Was the truck ever running properly? If yes, then check the cam gear before going any farther. There are two timing problems that are common, the first is the nylon has come off of the stock cam gear and the other is the roll pin has sheared on the distributor. First rotate the engine back and forth with a breaker bar on the harmonic balancer while watching the rotor movement. If that is okay pull the distributor and check the gear on the bottom of it. If the truck has never run properly then look at the wiring. The fact that three boxes cause three different problems actually makes me lean towards miswired ignition as the Duraspark has some really cool features such as ignition retard while cranking and aftermarket boxes are made differently so if it is miswired then energizing more than one circuit at a time can cause weird things to happen. As far as the distributor goes, there are not different distributors for Duraspark, all work the same and will work with any module, only the modules vary at all. The blue grommit model is the best as it only has two standard features, run and retard while cranking which is ideal for hot start and high compression engines. Ranchero50 does not seem to like Duraspark but just about every vehicle I touch gets one eventually unless it is a restoration! I even put one on a 1948 Lincoln (trust me, that was interesting) and on my old Fiat 1608cc race car using a Pinto 2.3 distributor! Hawkrod

jeffw · Post by **jeffw** » December 23, 2007, 11:50 am

try the fuel filter, sounds like she is not gettin enough juice

6166 Junkyard Dog · Post by **6166 Junkyard Dog** » December 23, 2007, 1:06 pm

Hawkrod says it best all 3 boxes doing weird things,, Fuel not issue cause if it was starving for fuel would do it all the time

Phil · Post by **Phil** » December 23, 2007, 2:29 pm

Yeah E diagnosis is tough for me.
The roll pin would explain a few things. Backfire due to timing changing, running "backwards" etc

I said compression thinking maybe to see if a valve wasn't opening or something due to a collapsed lifter or a valvetrain issue. Thinking the backfire was unspent fuel firing in the exhaust.

I'm a noob so its all guesswork for me

6166 Junkyard Dog · Post by **6166 Junkyard Dog** » December 23, 2007, 2:58 pm

THATS What we need is different ideas

needmoretime · Post by **needmoretime** » December 23, 2007, 4:56 pm

IMO If it was running ok before with no changes ya have to diagnose before throwing a bunch of parts to it. One thing Banjo told me was the truck was sitting awhile before he fired it up on Friday. All the wet weather we are having could be the issue by itself. A fuel pressure test and a good timing light could find the problem. Stand under a blanket to block the daylight and watch for fireworks under the hood with a possible crossfire. It very wet up this way this weekend.

When you read this you will probably be on your way home. Duraspark is a reliable system.

Alan Mclennan · Post by **Alan Mclennan** » December 23, 2007, 5:02 pm

could the drive gear on the cam be missing some teeth,has it got burnt out valves,Lenore had 4 and over 30 kph missed and farted like a bastard. Is the dizzy reaching the cam properly.keep thinking!.

Alan,

6166 Junkyard Dog · Post by **6166 Junkyard Dog** » December 23, 2007, 5:16 pm

WAYNE I asked John if he looked at nite under the hood and he said with no fireworks

FORDMANLCRACKEL · Post by **FORDMANLCRACKEL** » December 23, 2007, 6:14 pm

Tom ya might want to check and see if the timing is advancing when ya rev the engine. Hook a timing lite up and rev the engine and see if the timing mark moves.

Lonnie

6166 Junkyard Dog · Post by **6166 Junkyard Dog** » December 23, 2007, 8:12 pm

I will get off the truck tomorrow and see what we can do for her

Garbz · Post by **Garbz** » December 23, 2007, 8:16 pm

I would put a good reb minnie ball in her and call it quits....LOL

Couldnt resist brother Banjo!

Garbz

6166 Junkyard Dog · Post by **6166 Junkyard Dog** » December 23, 2007, 8:18 pm

David I did have your number but the wrong area code Had a Az. code instaed of your Pa. area code

Truckfarmer · Post by **Truckfarmer** » December 23, 2007, 11:41 pm

Look at the 8 sided spider (Stator?) to see if it has rust on it. Had a Duraspark do that once. Cleaned the rust off and it ran for years.

Hawkrod · Post by **Hawkrod** » December 24, 2007, 12:24 am

Truckfarmer wrote:Look at the 8 sided spider (Stator?) to see if it has rust on it. Had a Duraspark do that once. Cleaned the rust off and it ran for years.

Very good point, also make sure that the pickup is properly mounted and that the ground screw is clean and tight. I like to add an external ground wire as the ground for the module is in the distributor! The black wire on the pickup is the ground and I usually splice an extra wire onto it to bolt to a clean ground. You can hook the 12V while cranking wire to the I terminal on the solenoid BTW. Hawkrod

banjopicker66 · Post by **banjopicker66** » December 24, 2007, 9:01 am

Guys, I REALLY REALLY APPRECIATE all the input.

Here is the history, and I'll especially answer Hawkrod's questions:

The truck ran great in it's current configuration up to Slickstock '04. I have made NO changes to the truck since then, except to drive it every couple of weeks a few miles up and down the freeway to keep things lubricated.

Before Slickstock '04, I put in an RV cam and Cloyes timing set, so that should be fine.
Duraspark II is from a '76 F-150 with 390, wired with factory setup, with the box that was working it fine before I sold the 390.
I replaced the distributor in the parking lot Saturday (22 Dec 07), and the one that came out was fine, no stripped or worn gear teeth, roll pin OK.

So, here is the blow-by-blow breakdown of how it happened.
15 December: After 3 months away, I check her out, and she starts right up. Idles fine, revs up fine. No problems. Freeway speeds are great up to 85 mph, fully loaded with Slick parts, too boxes, heavy boxes of parts and 2 rear punkins - and more. Great acceleration too, as expected from a 460. I drive it every day, just fine, for a total of about 350 miles for a week.
21 December: Hard starting cold, but finally fires.
Then, she won't start warm in the parking lot - no spark at all. Then she spits a bit, and kicks back. After sitting for several hours (we went to the office to settle on the house) she fires right up.
Uh-oh, I notice a flutter at 1800 - 2100 RPM. I goose it and it goes away.
We get on I-95 and head south. Lots of traffic, and we take 4 hours to go 150 miles from Baltimore to Richmond. High RPMs at 85 MPH all is OK, idling at stop and go is OK too. The flutter at 1900 RPMs is there, but just barely.

Here is the key:
Since I had trouble starting earlier in the day, I left her idling to check into the motel, for about 20 minutes.
When I go to get gas, the truck will NOT exceed 1200 RPMs at all! She bogs down like it is over advanced.
SOMETHING happened during that 20 minutes of idling. Garbz suggested a wiped cam, but I am not sure that's right. Oil pressure at hot idle is 15 lbs, cold is 30. (Pressure at run speeds is 30 hot, 60 cold.) Besides, she doesn't run like there is a burned valve or a wiped lobe once she gets going.

Next morning, I end up changing the distributor with reluctor, pickup etc all new (old one was fine), cap, rotor, coil, starter solenoid and starter.

I check voltages at the wires. 10V at RUN, 12V at start. Everything checks out. I re-worked all the slices to ensure they were sound. I double check the wiring, and it is wired according to the diagram we all use.

So, here is the end result:

With the original module, she starts right up, and runs great - up to 1000 RPMs. She bogs down and spits at 1000RPMs and higher.
With an old, replacement module (from a running truck, I keep as a spare), it is VERY hard to start, with spitting, trying to run backwards, popping and backfiring. BUT, if she starts, she runs beautifully - under full load even! - but she is hard to start.

A brand new module is similar, hard starting, but runs beautifully once she gets going.

HELP!

Hawkrod:
The I terminal on the starter solenoid is where I tapped into to get the 12V at START.
For resisted voltage at RUN, I spliced into the original wire for the original coil, right at the connector for the original coil.
For 12V at RUN, I tapped into an unfused connector at the fuse box.
the Y-block used the original Also, I have several grounds. Block to firewall, firewall to fender skirt. I do not have an extra ground for the DuraSpark II wiring - that might be it perhaps???

Johnny Canuck · Post by **Johnny Canuck** » December 24, 2007, 10:31 am

Banjo I ain't gonna be able to help beyond what these fine gents have told you, but I wish you a Merry Christmas and hope this resolves itself very soon. What a crappy thing to have happen while you are moving.