dead in the water (again!)

stevechaos13 · Post by **stevechaos13** » March 30, 2009, 11:36 am

Well, I finally thought I had her going good again. New starter, new wiring harness, new solenoid, new plug wires, new hei distributor, and I know there's stuff I'm forgetting. I've taken her on 2 treks now, without incident, and then yesterday she died.
I had just filled up my tank and was taking a little trip out to the lake, about 15 miles from home when it happened, cruising along at about 50 when I hear a loud pop and she starts to loose power I give it a little gas, another pop and no go. I ease over to the side of the road and shut it off. I give it a few minutes, and try it again, another pop, at least this time I could tell it was a back fire. The first two I'm not so sure about. I get out, pop the hood and take a look around, no smoke, no blown hoses, no thing...I check the oil, not milky, check the raidiator, not oily. I crawl underneath, and don't see anything out of the ordinary. I try to crank it again. Now it sounds diffrent. Every since I put the HEI dizzy in, as soon as you crank the key, instant ignition. This time it just cranks and cranks. No back fire like the last time, just cranking. I also noticed that the fuel filter is not filling up like usual. The only thing I did notice that was out of the ordinary was the butterfly on my carb was down. I opened it and a little bit of smoke billowed out...
I had to have it towed. Lame.
This is my 65 Ford F100. The motor is all stock as far as I know. 429 out of a 72 thunderbird (at least I think, I checked the code on the heads and that was the only year listed, they're the crappy ones) I don't think that this engine has been built up much at all. I put on the HEI Dizzy, and replaced the things listed above, but that's about it. This has me stumped. I've ran this truck 70 mile trips down the highway, at 70-80MPH and never had a problem.
I have no idea what might have gone wrong. I was thinking with the backfires that it may have been the timing chain broke, but i haven't opened it up yet to see. I read that it is rare for the timing chains to break on these engines, and it wasn't under any extreme duress.
Any one have any idea what happened to my motor?

Bills 66 · Post by **Bills 66** » March 30, 2009, 12:14 pm

Steve
Take the top off your distributor and see if the rotor turns when you crank it. If it does your timing chain is not broken.
If it does not, it explains why there is no fuel as the eccentric that runs the fuel pump is on the cam shaft that is turned by the timing chain.
I would like to bet that you have a fuel starvation problem. It explains the lean back fires and lack of fuel in the bowl. 3 common causes are.
1) rust or junk in the fuel tank
2) a collapsed rubber hose where the fuel exits the tank and starts forward or at the fuel pump
3) a bad fuel pump

to trouble shoot your fuel system take the line off the inlet side of the fuel pump you should have a steady flow of fuel out of the line. If not blow through the line you should hear air bubbling in the fuel tank.
If you have plenty of fuel at the inlet of the fuel pump. reconnect that line and disconnect the out let line and direct into a container, crank the engine you should have steady pulses of fuel in to your container.
hope this helps
Bill

Phil · Post by **Phil** » March 30, 2009, 12:17 pm

Back fire will usually indicate a timing issue

I would look to see if the distributor gear roll pin isn't sheared.
Maybe a stuck advance?
It would stop cranking over mechanically and break stuff with a busted timing chain I'd think.

Go get a cheap Autozone reman points distributor and stab it in, set the timing and try again.

Smarter guys than me will chime in soon...

slick4x4 · Post by **slick4x4** » March 30, 2009, 12:42 pm

sometime a timing chain will 'jump a tooth or two...
will not try to start or pop, so out of time.
sometimes you can advance the dizzy enough that it will run....
if thats the case . 'TIME' for a new chain

(sorry about the pun)

stevechaos13 · Post by **stevechaos13** » March 30, 2009, 1:21 pm

slick4x4 wrote:sometime a timing chain will 'jump a tooth or two...
will not try to start or pop, so out of time.
sometimes you can advance the dizzy enough that it will run....
if thats the case . 'TIME' for a new chain

(sorry about the pun)

That's one of the only things I tried to do roadside. I just happened to have a set of wrenches with me, so I loosend the hold down bolt on the dizzy and advanced it a bit. Still nothing.

36truck · Post by **36truck** » March 30, 2009, 1:26 pm

Every since I put the HEI dizzy in

What kind of dizzy was it? If it was the pro comp that explains it. Did this start after the new dizzy?

I would also check out the roll pin on the dizzy gear.

stevechaos13 · Post by **stevechaos13** » March 30, 2009, 1:30 pm

36truck wrote:
Every since I put the HEI dizzy in
What kind of dizzy was it? If it was the pro comp that explains it. Did this start after the new dizzy?

I would also check out the roll pin on the dizzy gear.

Uh oh!
Yeah, it's procomp.
I can't really say that it started after or not since the truck wasn't running before I put in the procomp.
Check it for what exactly?

Bills 66 · Post by **Bills 66** » March 30, 2009, 1:45 pm

A broken pin on the dizzy shaft or a slippped timing chain would not explain the lack of fuel in his filter.
Bill

stevechaos13 · Post by **stevechaos13** » March 30, 2009, 1:57 pm

Bills 66 wrote:A broken pin on the dizzy shaft or a slippped timing chain would not explain the lack of fuel in his filter.
Bill

That's true.
What could be the source of the little bit of smoke out of the carb though?

Bills 66 · Post by **Bills 66** » March 30, 2009, 2:01 pm

All it takes to smoke is a little gas. takes the proper fuel air mixture to run,
Bill

stevechaos13 · Post by **stevechaos13** » March 30, 2009, 2:51 pm

Bills 66 wrote:Steve
Take the top off your distributor and see if the rotor turns when you crank it. If it does your timing chain is not broken.
If it does not, it explains why there is no fuel as the eccentric that runs the fuel pump is on the cam shaft that is turned by the timing chain.
I would like to bet that you have a fuel starvation problem. It explains the lean back fires and lack of fuel in the bowl. 3 common causes are.
1) rust or junk in the fuel tank
2) a collapsed rubber hose where the fuel exits the tank and starts forward or at the fuel pump
3) a bad fuel pump

to trouble shoot your fuel system take the line off the inlet side of the fuel pump you should have a steady flow of fuel out of the line. If not blow through the line you should hear air bubbling in the fuel tank.
If you have plenty of fuel at the inlet of the fuel pump. reconnect that line and disconnect the out let line and direct into a container, crank the engine you should have steady pulses of fuel in to your container.
hope this helps
Bill

I'll try that this evening and then get back to you. Thanks.

ridgerunner · Post by **ridgerunner** » March 30, 2009, 3:08 pm

check to see if you have spark first. if you have spark then check fuel system.

kjvforme · Post by **kjvforme** » March 30, 2009, 3:08 pm

Put some fuel down the carb and see if she fires up. If it does than it's probably the fuel. If not hook up a timing light to number one and roll it over and see if its firing at all, looking at the timing light , could be a bad igntion module. Crank the engine over to TDC then pull the Distributor cap and see if it's lined up with #1 Cylinder, if not you jumped. I have gotten burned many times by thinking the worst and it's something stupid. Coil wire pops out of the coil or distributor. I even had a radiator overflow and squirt over to the igniton cicuit and ground out everything. Don't worry about the internals until you have exhausted the other possibilites first. Remeber to go with the flow on most of your systems. What I mean is tank, pump filter, carb or Battery, wires, igniton switch, coil, distributor, spark plugs, ground, they all have a flow.

stevechaos13 · Post by **stevechaos13** » March 30, 2009, 4:15 pm

Thanks guys, lotsa sound advice here.
I'm going to give all the suggestions a try tonight. I really hope it's not anything too serious. From what I've read here and elsewhere, I'm really leaning towards fuel system problem or else even the dizzy itself. We'll see...

robert porterfield · Post by **robert porterfield** » March 30, 2009, 5:11 pm

i have had several incidents similar to what you describe.....every time it has been a sheared roll pin on the distributor drive gear like sujested before vreify rotor turns when cranking...........if so also verify that rotor "lines"up with cyl its supposed to fire when my roll pins sheared i was able to twist the dist shaft in hole by turning rotor

might check those before "diving in" best of luck.......p/s if engine runs "bunch of oil p.s.i." going to be hard on dist roll pins

Jonas · Post by **Jonas** » March 30, 2009, 6:35 pm

I had a 429 in a 67. The timing chain broke. Syptoms similiar to what you described. I beleive mine was caused by improper installation of the or faulty fuel pump. The engine was just put together and it was on it first test drive. I think the arm from the fuel pump broke and got in the timing chain.

Good Luck

stevechaos13 · Post by **stevechaos13** » March 31, 2009, 8:06 am

Well, I didn't have a whole lot of time last night to tear into it, but it's bad. First off, I'm leaking gas. Not real bad, but enough, and I can't see from where. I plan to tear into it better this evening. Second, the gear on the Dizzy is gone. the pin snapped off right down at the base. I'm not sure where it is either. I didn't have a flashlight nor anything slender enough to dig around inside and see if it's still intact in there...

36truck · Post by **36truck** » March 31, 2009, 9:28 am

Seeing as it looks like it broke the roll pin you need to find out why. You should pull the oil pan and find out what got into the oil pump to stop it from turning that caused the pin to break.

stevechaos13 · Post by **stevechaos13** » March 31, 2009, 9:57 am

I know. Easier said than done though. I'm going to have to pull the whole motor I'm afraid just to be able to get to the pan.

36truck · Post by **36truck** » March 31, 2009, 10:07 am

It looks like on 460ford that you said that the whole bottom of the dizzy is missing? If so I would be all over the dizzy people for a refund & put in a duraspark dizzy.

dead in the water (again!)

dead in the water (again!)

dead in water