MPG's

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BarnieTrk
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Re: MPG's

Post by BarnieTrk »

charliemccraney wrote: They don't have any compression. Give it some compression. Make it require mid grade at the minimum. The increase in efficiency should offset the increase in the cost of the fuel and result in increased mileage.

I'm at about 16.5 right now with a 3.70, T5 and 292. I'm hoping for 18-20 when all is said and done. It's not really a goal. It's just that everything I've done to enhance performance seems to have also increased the mileage and I still have several upgrades to go before it reaches my performance goal.
Charlie,

What would you say would be a desirable compression to have in that 352... 10:1?

What cam would you suggest - a modern-era, RV-profiled camshaft?

BarnieTrk :notworthy:
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charliemccraney
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Re: MPG's

Post by charliemccraney »

The ideal compression for a given combination and grade of fuel is determined by a number of factors, which include but is not limited to the head design, material (iron or aluminum), and camshaft profile. I know enough about it to get in trouble so I'm not going to try to get all technical about it. A static ratio of 10:1 absolutely could be what is required for a given combination. It also could be too high or too low. You really can't know until you have your build planned.

Here's a link to a dynamic compression calculator which is really what is important. I think this calculator only applies to iron heads.
http://www.projectpontiac.com/ppsite15/ ... calculator
The dynamic ratio is needed to determine the grade of fuel required. I can't find a chart with a quick google search, but I'm sure one is out there.
Ah, not a chart but here, Ted Eaton has a limit of 8:1 dynamic for 91-93 octane. I assure you, he knows what he is talking about.
http://www.y-blocksforever.com/forums/T ... -3-1.aspx?
According to that calculator and Ted's opinion of 8:1 dynamic, I could run 10.6:1 static with my combo and be fine with premium. But my future includes boost so I'll stick to the plan. That calculator comes up with 9.73:1 as my current static ratio, and 7.37 dynamic. It is a little high in my case because of the shape of the gasket. I get 9.45 when I do the math by hand.

Camshaft, I don't know. Mine is a reproduction of a '57 blower cam. Certainly not new tech and definitely not a low end power grind like an RV cam. I was told that mileage would be terrible , and I didn't really care, but with the rest of the combo, that is simply not what happened. When I do it again, I'm going to call My Favorite Cam Grinder, Inc. and tell them what I'm doing and let them decide on the grind. That really is the best bet but you need to make a plan for the engine build and stick to it.

I'll reiterate that I did not build mine for economy. I just want it to go faster. It just so happens that the mileage increased as well. I'm sure the compression increase helped a lot. Even a '57 292 with the high compression heads does not have more than 8.5:1 from the factory and most truck engines are absolutely terrible in that department, but I really can't suggest how and why each component contributed or exactly which parts you will need for economy.

I don't know much about truck FEs, but I bet if you look at the way it's assembled from the factory, you can increase the compression by minimum of a full point and still be able to run just fine on regular. I'm talking about the actual compression, not what they advertised - you can throw that out the window. Can anyone who knows about FEs comment on this?
Lawrenceville, Ga
1961 F100 Unibody
318 Y-block (292 +.070 bore, +.170 stroke), FMS T5-Z w/Mustang 10.5" diaphragm clutch.
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BigMike
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Re: MPG's

Post by BigMike »

Update on mileage

Last week I burned a tank of fuel mostly driving to work. It's 90% highway driving to work but I did drive some in town as well on the weekend. I tried not to go over 62mph (2700 rpm) (VERY difficult in Atlanta). My mileage was 14.5.

I would say that with 3.54 gears, running the same going 72 mph (2700 rpm), the mileage would be above 14.5. The reasoning is that the trip would be shorter and the engine wouldn't run as long. But there would be more wind resistance.
1965 F250 352 4spd/Dana 4.10 (sold)
1991 Porsche 964 Cabriolet
2006 Cheby Silverado
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee - yeah, it's a HEMI
BarnieTrk
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Re: MPG's

Post by BarnieTrk »

BigMike,
First off, please let me clarify: the trip distance wouldn't be shorter - only the time it took to travel the distance...since you would be traveling the same length of road in both examples. ANYWAY, I follow your reasoning.....but I'll have to disagree with your conclusion.

Consider a shorter/quicker example: let's assume a 1/4 mile = 5 city blocks in length.

Test #1) You hop into your Slick fire it up & push the accelerator to the floor & hold it there for 5 city blocks, then turn the key off.

Test #2) Now start your Slick & calmly drive up to 40mph for the length of 5 city blocks and at the end of the fifth block you turn the key off.

Results:
-- I think we can agree with no explanation that your drive time (engine run time) will be shorter in #1 versus #2.

-- The wind resistance (aerodynamic drag) would be greater in #1 versus #2.
Why?

The power required to overcome the aerodynamic drag can be calculated with physics. The power needed to push an object through a fluid increases as the cube of the velocity.

Example: A car cruising on a highway at 50 mph may require only 10 horsepower to overcome air drag, but that same car at 100 mph would requires 80 hp.

With a doubling of speed the drag (force) quadruples per the formula.

-- I'm confident that you'd burn more fuel in #1 versus #2.

Question to all those smarter than me:
If BigMike was to perform the above 2 test runs, and shift his manual transmission at the exact same engine RPM,
would the total # of engine RPMs (cycles) be the same at the end of each test? (Assuming no wheel or clutch spin).

--- I'm thinking yes, because the distance and drivetrain gear ratios are the same in both tests.....

BarnieTrk
Think: Designed for a specific function.
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charliemccraney
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Re: MPG's

Post by charliemccraney »

14.5 combined isn't bad. The 3.54 will drop your rpm by about 350 at the same road speed. What happened with your trans swap plans? An overdrive will be the ticket and if it's still not what you want, a rear gear change. A typical overdrive ratio of about .8 will drop your rpm by about 550rpm at 62mph and you maintain the low end with the shorter rear.

The duration of the trip will be shorter at a faster road speed but with a taller gear in the rear, the engine components will not have traveled as far. To say it another way, less revolutions are required to travel the same distance with a taller gear.
With the same gearing and the same shift points, it should turn the same number of revs for a given distance so long as there is no wheel spin or slipping of the clutch. 1000 revolutions is 1000 revolutions whether it takes 1 second or 60 seconds to complete them.
Lawrenceville, Ga
1961 F100 Unibody
318 Y-block (292 +.070 bore, +.170 stroke), FMS T5-Z w/Mustang 10.5" diaphragm clutch.
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BigMike
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Re: MPG's

Post by BigMike »

When I said the trip would be shorter, I meant in time.

Still contemplating the transmission. Any type of OD unit would be too expensive. Changing out the gears would be the cheapest solution to drop RPMs. I don't believe for a second I would notice any power difference the way I drive the truck.
1965 F250 352 4spd/Dana 4.10 (sold)
1991 Porsche 964 Cabriolet
2006 Cheby Silverado
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee - yeah, it's a HEMI
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Blackwaterforge
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Re: MPG's

Post by Blackwaterforge »

ICEMAN6166 wrote:i dont think that way at all.

i own the slicks outright they are inexpensive to insure and i can work on them myself.plus they are trucks and get used as trucks and have a full frame and thick sheet metal made in USA.

compared to new junk

big payment,high insurance, cant work on them. thin skinned, plastic coated with too much crap in the cab you dont need.

i vote slick, who cares about mileage, i win in every other category.
X2
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BarnieTrk
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Location: Stanton, Michigan

Re: MPG's

Post by BarnieTrk »

BigMike wrote: Changing out the gears would be the cheapest solution to drop RPMs.
I don't believe for a second I would notice any power difference the way I drive the truck.
Sounds like you've made the decision.

Now you just have to 'pull the trigger' and get some 3.54 gears & put them in......... 8)

BarnieTrk
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BigMike
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Re: MPG's

Post by BigMike »

BarnieTrk wrote:
BigMike wrote: Changing out the gears would be the cheapest solution to drop RPMs.
I don't believe for a second I would notice any power difference the way I drive the truck.
Sounds like you've made the decision.

Now you just have to 'pull the trigger' and get some 3.54 gears & put them in......... 8)

BarnieTrk
That part is easy. Being a well connected Jeep guy, Dana 60 gears are very easy to come by. About $500 installed.

I'd put in 3.08 if they made them for a D60.

:D
1965 F250 352 4spd/Dana 4.10 (sold)
1991 Porsche 964 Cabriolet
2006 Cheby Silverado
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee - yeah, it's a HEMI
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